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Thread: BIG GROUP

  1. #1001

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    Of those that have settled have any negotiated with HMRC?
    Is there any possibility of negotiation on an individual basis?
    Is that what Tax Consultants do?
    Please excuse my lack of knowledge, just trying to find my way having now worked out a liability that equates to a frightening sum.

  2. #1002

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    Quote Originally Posted by RajaStyle View Post
    I am still confused what this payment actually entitles the individual making the payments, Webberg are you able to clarify what this provides ?

    I.e just past loans being challenged on a group basis ? The best settlement individually ? Representation for all Hmrc letters etc related to this ? Challenge of 2019 charges to years they haven't even opened an enquiry for on a group basis ?

    Is there any other organisation or group challenging the 2019 issue as a collective action which no doubt is affecting many people ? Small groups are unlikely to have an effect on Hmrc, I would of thought it needs a strong challenge from a large group ?

    Interested in joining the right group but just want to be fully informed and think we should target our efforts. I'm sure many contractors would join when they see a strong movement and split the cost.

    Don't think the cost is an issue, just many like myself have already paid accountants / specialists quite a bit who have only been happy to get their fees with no real beneficial result.
    Big Group provides a number of templates that allow members to make their own representations and appeals as the case may be.

    Big Group pays for the research required to come up with a range of settlement ideas and proposals.

    Big Group pays for the research to allow members to challenge issues such as discovery and open years.

    Big Group allows access to MP letter templates and the platform for coordinated action at the political and media level.

    Big Group provides information on specific schemes around the latest moves from them.

    Big Group advises on matters connected to loans.

    Big Group does not:

    Provide suggested responses to HMRC for individual enquiries (because they will depend on individual circumstances) but you would be able to do that by applying information provided and common sense.

    Big Group will be involved in such legal challenges as are considered will create value for money. That may include the 2019 charge. We will act as coordinator and expert witness but as this is likely to be a legal issue, the heavy lifting will be with a law firm and they will need to be paid.

    I have no knowledge of what other groups may or may not be doing.

    Your dream of a group large enough to influence HMRC is not going to happen. HMRC claim 40,000 are looking at the 2019 charge. Being generous, we think perhaps 8,000 contractors getting proper advice or actively looking for an answer that is not HMRC's "pay up or else". So around 32,000 contractors in denial or still searching for an answer.

    Where are they?

    Not in Big Group that's for sure.

  3. #1003

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clairol View Post
    Of those that have settled have any negotiated with HMRC?
    Is there any possibility of negotiation on an individual basis?
    Is that what Tax Consultants do?
    Please excuse my lack of knowledge, just trying to find my way having now worked out a liability that equates to a frightening sum.
    HMRC don't negotiate. They say "this is the calculation, take it or leave it".

    If you try to change the basis, chances are you will find the "offer" withdrawn.

    If there are personal circumstances that can lead to a different number, HMRC will take them into account (eventually and if you push hard enough).

    I'm not sure what a Tax Consultant does. I know what WTT does, but they are not Big Group and I'd be crossing several red lines here by discussing WTT.

    Most Tax Consultants should be explaining to their clients the analysis and consequences of the choices available for settlement (in this case) and allow the client to make an informed decision.

  4. #1004

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    Quote Originally Posted by RajaStyle View Post
    I am still confused what this payment actually entitles the individual making the payments, Webberg are you able to clarify what this provides ?

    I.e just past loans being challenged on a group basis ? The best settlement individually ? Representation for all Hmrc letters etc related to this ? Challenge of 2019 charges to years they haven't even opened an enquiry for on a group basis ?

    Is there any other organisation or group challenging the 2019 issue as a collective action which no doubt is affecting many people ? Small groups are unlikely to have an effect on Hmrc, I would of thought it needs a strong challenge from a large group ?

    Interested in joining the right group but just want to be fully informed and think we should target our efforts. I'm sure many contractors would join when they see a strong movement and split the cost.

    Don't think the cost is an issue, just many like myself have already paid accountants / specialists quite a bit who have only been happy to get their fees with no real beneficial result.

    I am with you RajaStyle. I am still unsure BigGroup is the way forward. They seem to be advising settle, which may be the best way forward. If this is the preferred advice then I would not see them ever doing any litigation. I am also unsure if litigation is even worth it.

    But as you said, if you do a voluntary settlement is there any guarantee that the HRMC will not come back at you for more later?

    I know a lot of people have been going through this for a long time, and I apologise to those for bringing up things have been covered before. But some of us who have been out of the business and country for some considerable time this was news to me only a few months ago. Webberg you cannot say that 32000 people have their heads in the sand. I was in at least 5 different schemes. I have only been contacted by one of them, even though I know of 2 others that still exist. I would suggest there are still a lot of contractors out there that are totally unaware of what might be coming.

  5. #1005

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    Quote Originally Posted by me206et View Post
    I am with you RajaStyle. I am still unsure BigGroup is the way forward. They seem to be advising settle, which may be the best way forward. If this is the preferred advice then I would not see them ever doing any litigation. I am also unsure if litigation is even worth it.

    But as you said, if you do a voluntary settlement is there any guarantee that the HRMC will not come back at you for more later?

    I know a lot of people have been going through this for a long time, and I apologise to those for bringing up things have been covered before. But some of us who have been out of the business and country for some considerable time this was news to me only a few months ago. Webberg you cannot say that 32000 people have their heads in the sand. I was in at least 5 different schemes. I have only been contacted by one of them, even though I know of 2 others that still exist. I would suggest there are still a lot of contractors out there that are totally unaware of what might be coming.
    Big Group is most definitely not advising settle.

    On what evidence do you say that?

    We have our view on what a settlement should look like and we are pressing for that and it is not what HMRC will tell you is correct.

    We will if necessary litigate our analysis but would prefer not to if we can avoid it.

    Please - stick to the facts and if you are unsure - call us.

  6. #1006

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    All reports post to April 2019 loan charge becoming law.

    One way or another the tax will have to be paid.

    So if you're not sure what to do now, just wait until 2019 and pay the tax then.

  7. #1007

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChimpMaster View Post
    All reports post to April 2019 loan charge becoming law.

    One way or another the tax will have to be paid.

    So if you're not sure what to do now, just wait until 2019 and pay the tax then.
    And this has what to do with Big Group?

  8. #1008

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    Quote Originally Posted by webberg View Post
    Mod edit: Joining instructions.

    I have two takers so far.

    To clarify this BIG GROUP is ONE GROUP across ALL schemes.

    It does not impact action individuals may wish to take on their own or via other groups.

    Let's indulge in some speculation.

    A group is formed.

    It decides that there are perhaps 4 scheme "types" that are potentially caught by HMRC's present interpretations.

    It knows that HMRC is not prepared to be sensible in settlement and therefore the only strategy is to defend a number of cases at Tribunal in the hope that a less than 100% victory for HMRC will force them to the table.

    The group also defends to extent possible, APN claims and other spurious attempts from the agency to extract funds. This is on the basis that civil disobedience and tying up HMRC resource is an effective strategy.

    That may require 5 years.

    We'll allow 4 full time staff (admin/website/etc) and a panel of experts. Accommodation, telephone etc. Say 200,000 a year tops. So 1m over 5 years.

    "Experts" budget perhaps 1.5m over that period. That's pretty much one average (in terms of charge out rate) tax specialist full time for 5 years.

    So 2.5m over 5 years. Let's say 3m.

    If the cost per individual was 10 a month for 60 months, how many are needed?

    3m/60/10 = 5,000 people.

    How many contractors impacted?

    I don't know. If 100,000, then we're looking at 5% membership.

    To get to that value requires some form of advertising campaign and that in turn requires some seed funding.

    There are "litigation funders" out there. They work by advancing legal costs in return for a cut of a "win".

    They might be interested. More likely something like this forum could run a pre funding group and effectively put up initial funds.

    I reckon perhaps 25,000 to run the ads and initial letter/email/website stuff.

    How many people here?

    500? That's 50 each.

    So the deal is:

    Put up 50. Put up some of your undoubted IT expertise. Hire a temporary project director (on a contract). Ask for volunteers for a steering group (I'd be interested). Elect/appoint a steering committee.

    Spend the initial money over 6 months and see what the response is and re-evaluate.

    If this is a "go", membership is 10 a month for 60 months (perhaps less/more). Alternatively pay 500 day 1 and then nothing until month 61.

    Make sure to get anybody who is willing from NTRT. Make sure to include some PR.

    Anybody?
    So webberg the membership is just about having access to templates and making informed decisions individually, your first post on this thread which I have quoted does not mention templates at all or anything you have mentioned in your above reply to me.

    It is this first post that largely interested me and I still feel it could be possible by a crowdfunding strategy which most contractors would join if we set a target value with each person funding equal amounts.

    i.e. "A group is formed. It decides that there are perhaps 4 scheme "types" that are potentially caught by HMRC's present interpretations." and covers 2019 challenges.

    If contractors could see that the group effort was directly covering this wider challenge of past and present loans including 2019 tax charges (over 4 main scheme types) it would be a large fishing net which would catch most contractors and motivate them to fund a large challenge using the method you described in your first post. Word would get round and most contractors would fund the few hundred each just out of principle.

    Are you saying this is no longer practical or possible or worth the effort ?

  9. #1009

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    Default BIG GROUP

    Raja, you know that first post is from 2015, i.e. Over 2 years ago?

    Is my understanding that you want people to provide you with free help, when they've paid for it themselves, and you don't think you should have to help towards the costs?
    Strong and Stable Moderation

  10. #1010

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    Quote Originally Posted by WTFH View Post
    Raja, you know that first post is from 2015, i.e. Over 2 years ago?

    Is my understanding that you want people to provide you with free help, when they've paid for it themselves, and you don't think you should have to help towards the costs?
    So what if it was from 2015 ? And FYI I have paid for my own help through no avail and I am proposing a group which I myself would be funding so which of your comments have value ? ... unless you have anything decent to contribute I suggest you sit on the sideline and keep reading as it seems you are waiting for free help.

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