Saint Martin of McGuinness RIP

[vetran]

Martin McGuiness. Interesting man. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist and all that.
Question is would we be better off now if we could find his ISIS Equivalent?
Food for thought.

he is probably in Saudi, now if we could get over the weapons deals & oil we might have a chance.

[The_Equalizer]

Martin McGuiness. Interesting man. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist and all that.
Question is would we be better off now if we could find his ISIS Equivalent?
Food for thought.

There seems to be a general confusion here. McGuinness et al were working towards an ideological goal - the unification of Ireland (otherwise known as 'Brits out'). It just so happened to be most were Roman Catholic. ISIS on the other hand appear wish to become the sole religion. There’s no room for negotiation with the latter as far as I can see.

[sasguru]

There seems to be a general confusion here. McGuinness et al were working towards an ideological goal - the unification of Ireland (otherwise known as 'Brits out'). It just so happened to be most were Roman Catholic. ISIS on the other hand appear wish to become the sole religion. There’s no room for negotiation with the latter as far as I can see.

Hmmm I doubt it.
The people running ISIS are interested in power and money like everyone else.
The top guys running it aren't going to be the ones blowing themselves up.
Seems like a win-win if we let them have some fly-blown bit of desert and maybe an oil well or two, provided they cease and desist.
And allow our home-grown cretins to join them provided they renounce British citizenship.

[northernladyuk]

There seems to be a general confusion here. McGuinness et al were working towards an ideological goal - the unification of Ireland (otherwise known as 'Brits out'). It just so happened to be most were Roman Catholic. ISIS on the other hand appear wish to become the sole religion. There’s no room for negotiation with the latter as far as I can see.

I would broadly agree. The other thing to consider is that while there was a goal of a united Ireland, there was a trigger around civil rights for Catholics (e.g. discriminatory employment practices in engineering and ship building http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segrega...and#Employment ). So a peace was always possible without conceding a united Ireland, as we have seen. Hard to see this with ISIS.

It does seem that people have a very unbalanced view of McGuinness. It is possible to see him as both a terrorist murderer and a peacemaker.

[sasguru]

It does seem that people have a very unbalanced view of McGuinness. It is possible to see him as both a terrorist murderer and a peacemaker.

It appears he was both at different times of his life.
Also interesting is his relationship with Paisley, who you'd think would be his sworn enemy.

[vetran]

It appears he was both at different times of his life.
Also interesting is his relationship with Paisley, who you'd think would be his sworn enemy.

It took Paisley a while if I recall.

[NotAllThere]

There’s no room for negotiation with the latter as far as I can see.

That's what Andrew White said.
Canon Andrew White: 'Vicar of Baghdad' on leading a church in Iraq and being in the crosshairs of Isis | The Independent

There used to be 1.5 million Christians in Iraq but now there are only 260,000, he says. Some are calling it genocide. Surely he no longer believes that negotiations with Isis could work? White stares at me from behind owlish spectacles. “Can I be honest? You are absolutely right. You can’t negotiate with them. I have never said that about another group of people. These are really so different, so extreme, so radical, so evil.”

So what is to be done? “We must try and continue to keep the door open. We have to show that there is a willingness to engage. There are good Sunni leaders; they are not all evil like Isis.”

But surely there is only one logical conclusion to be drawn? He sighs, and answers slowly. “You are asking me how we can deal radically with Isis. The only answer is to radically destroy them. I don’t think we can do it by dropping bombs. We have got to bring about real change. It is a terrible thing to say as a priest.

[The_Equalizer]

I would broadly agree. The other thing to consider is that while there was a goal of a united Ireland, there was a trigger around civil rights for Catholics (e.g. discriminatory employment practices in engineering and ship building http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segrega...and#Employment ). So a peace was always possible without conceding a united Ireland, as we have seen. Hard to see this with ISIS.

It does seem that people have a very unbalanced view of McGuinness. It is possible to see him as both a terrorist murderer and a peacemaker.

Jimmy Savile - charity fund raiser extraordinaire and/or vile paedophile?

I suspect that somewhere in the mind of such folk that one's actions for good can, in some way, atone for one's sins.

[northernladyuk]

Jimmy Savile - charity fund raiser extraordinaire and/or vile paedophile?

I suspect that somewhere in the mind of such folk that one's actions for good can, in some way, atone for one's sins.

Winston Churchill: War Secretary who gassed Russian villages, or leader of the nation against Nazism?

Lot's of comparisons can be made but they're not awfully useful, neither is talk of atonement or redemption. I don't think McGuinness's role in the peace process atones for his history as a terrorist murderer. But both of these must be considered when evaluating him. One way of approaching the question about McGuinness is to consider whether we should evaluate him any differently than we would a terrorist murderer who had carried on being a terrorist murderer and not engaged as a leader in the peace process?

[The_Equalizer]

Winston Churchill: War Secretary who gassed Russian villages, or leader of the nation against Nazism?

Lot's of comparisons can be made but they're not awfully useful, neither is talk of atonement or redemption. I don't think McGuinness's role in the peace process atones for his history as a terrorist murderer. But both of these must be considered when evaluating him. One way of approaching the question about McGuinness is to consider whether we should evaluate him any differently than we would a terrorist murderer who had carried on being a terrorist murderer and not engaged as a leader in the peace process?

Perhaps I didn't make my point clear. I was suggesting that a person acts in a certain way to atone for their sins/wrong doing. In the case of McGuinness, I would hazard a guess this had nothing to do with his actions in later life. Sinn Fein's aim of unification of Ireland remains all.