Saint Martin of McGuinness RIP

[northernladyuk]

Perhaps I didn't make my point clear. I was suggesting that a person acts in a certain way to atone for their sins/wrong doing. In the case of McGuinness, I would hazard a guess this had nothing to do with his actions in later life. Sinn Fein's aim of unification of Ireland remains all.

OK.

[vetran]

Winston Churchill: War Secretary who gassed Russian villages, or leader of the nation against Nazism?

Lot's of comparisons can be made but they're not awfully useful, neither is talk of atonement or redemption. I don't think McGuinness's role in the peace process atones for his history as a terrorist murderer. But both of these must be considered when evaluating him. One way of approaching the question about McGuinness is to consider whether we should evaluate him any differently than we would a terrorist murderer who had carried on being a terrorist murderer and not engaged as a leader in the peace process?

ah from the Horse's Mouth not its Arse.

Leading Myths: “Churchill Advocated the First Use of Lethal Gas”

If anyone still believes that Churchill was an enthusiast of lethal gas, he will have to come up with better evidence than we have seen so far—and some acceptable explanation for the many instances when, faced with its possible use, Churchill and his commanders demurred. Truly, they thought on higher moral planes than the Syrians.

[northernladyuk]

ah from the Horse's Mouth not its Arse.

Leading Myths: “Churchill Advocated the First Use of Lethal Gas”

I didn't say that Churchill advocated the first use of legal gas.

The article you quote seems to exclude mustard gas as a lethal gas, if I read it right.

Continued use of the Royal Air Force in Iraq, Churchill explained to Air Marshal Trenchard, might require “the provision of some kind of asphyxiating bombs calculated to cause disablement of some kind but not death...“5 A year later Churchill urged Trenchard to continue “experimental work on gas bombs, especially mustard gas, which would inflict punishment upon recalcitrant natives without inflicting grave injury upon them.”6

Now mustard gas is much sterner stuff than tear gas. It causes itching, skin irritation and large, putrid blisters. If a victim’s eyes are exposed they become sore. A victim can contract conjunctivitis, where the eyelids swell, resulting in temporary blindness. But Churchill was right in his judgment that mustard gas was not usually lethal. Of 165,000 British mustard gas casualties on the Western Front in World War I, only 3000 or 2.5% were deaths. Chlorine, first used by the Germans, in its later “perfected” stage, killed nearly 20%.7 In the event, gas of any kind was not used in India or Iraq.

[vetran]

I didn't say that Churchill advocated the first use of legal gas.

The article you quote seems to exclude mustard gas as a lethal gas, if I read it right.

you inferred he did.

If one responds in kind during war it tends to be seen as justifiable self defence.

It seems that by threatening the whirlwind Churchill stopped the use of lethal Gas.

mustard gas was not usually lethal.

At the time 2.5% died. I imagine it would be higher if those gassed weren't already suffering from TB etc.

Chlorine Gas as used by the Germans was 20%.
So I think its relative.

We still use tear gas which has shown to be less dangerous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tear_gas

[northernladyuk]

you inferred he did.

If one responds in kind during war it tends to be seen as justifiable self defence.

It seems that by threatening the whirlwind Churchill stopped the use of lethal Gas.



At the time 2.5% died. I imagine it would be higher if those gassed weren't already suffering from TB etc.

Chlorine Gas as used by the Germans was 20%.
So I think its relative.

We still use tear gas which has shown to be less dangerous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tear_gas

So mustard gas is OK by you then. Glad we understand each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_...ogical_effects

Physiological effects[edit]

Soldier with moderate mustard agent burns sustained during World War I showing characteristic bullae on neck, armpit and hands
Mustard agent has extremely powerful vesicant effects on its victims. In addition, it is strongly mutagenic and carcinogenic, due to its alkylating properties. It is also lipophilic. Because people exposed to mustard agent rarely suffer immediate symptoms, and mustard-contaminated areas may appear completely normal, victims can unknowingly receive high dosages. Within 24 hours of exposure to mustard agent, victims experience intense itching and skin irritation, which gradually turns into large blisters filled with yellow fluid wherever the mustard agent contacted the skin. These are chemical burns and are very debilitating. Mustard agent vapor easily penetrates clothing fabrics such as wool or cotton, so it is not only the exposed skin of victims that gets burned. If the victim's eyes were exposed then they become sore, starting with conjunctivitis, after which the eyelids swell, resulting in temporary blindness. In rare cases of extreme ocular exposure to sulfur mustard vapors, corneal ulceration, anterior chamber scarring, and neovascularization have occurred. In these severe and infrequent cases, corneal transplantation has been used as a treatment option.[8] Miosis may also occur, which is probably the result from the cholinomimetic activity of mustard.[9] At very high concentrations, if inhaled, mustard agent causes bleeding and blistering within the respiratory system, damaging mucous membranes and causing pulmonary edema. Depending on the level of contamination, mustard agent burns can vary between first and second degree burns, though they can also be every bit as severe, disfiguring and dangerous as third degree burns.[10] Severe mustard agent burns (i.e. where more than 50% of the victim's skin has been burned) are often fatal, with death occurring after days or even weeks have passed. Mild or moderate exposure to mustard agent is unlikely to kill, though victims require lengthy periods of medical treatment and convalescence before recovery is complete.

The mutagenic and carcinogenic effects of mustard agent mean that victims who recover from mustard agent burns have an increased risk of developing cancer in later life. In a study of patients 25 years after wartime exposure to chemical weaponry, c-DNA microarray profiling indicated that a total of specific 122 genes were significantly mutated in the lungs and airways of sulfur mustard victims. Those genes all correspond to functions commonly affected by sulfur mustard exposure, including apoptosis, inflammation, and stress responses.[11]


Typical appearance of bullae on arm caused by blister agent burns
The vesicant property of mustard agent can be neutralized by oxidation or chlorination, using household bleach (sodium hypochlorite), or by nucleophilic attack using e.g. decontamination solution "DS2" (2% NaOH, 70% diethylenetriamine, 28% ethylene glycol monomethyl ether). After initial decontamination of the victim's wounds is complete, medical treatment is similar to that required by any conventional burn. The amount of pain and discomfort suffered by the victim is comparable as well. Mustard agent burns heal slowly, and, as with other types of burn, there is a risk of sepsis caused by pathogens such as Staphylococcus aureus and Pseudomonas aeruginosa. The mechanisms behind sulfur mustard’s effect on endothelial cells are still being studied, but recent studies have shown that high levels of exposure can induce high rates of both necrosis and apoptosis. In vitro tests have shown that at low concentrations of sulfur mustard, where apoptosis is the predominant result of exposure, pretreatment with 50 mM N-acetyl-L-cystein (NAC) was able to decrease the rate of apoptosis. NAC protects actin filaments from reorganization by sulfur mustard, demonstrating that actin filaments play a large role in the severe burns observed in victims.[12]

A British nurse treating soldiers with mustard agent burns during World War I commented:[13]

They cannot be bandaged or touched. We cover them with a tent of propped-up sheets. Gas burns must be agonizing because usually the other cases do not complain, even with the worst wounds, but gas cases are invariably beyond endurance and they cannot help crying out.

[vetran]

So mustard gas is OK by you then. Glad we understand each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_...ogical_effects

no but at the time it was considered by the government as non lethal.

Again everything is judged by hindsight and out of context.

It must be great to be so clever you can know things that the experts then didn't because of your mighty intellect.

[northernladyuk]

no but at the time it was considered by the government as non lethal.

Again everything is judged by hindsight and out of context.

It must be great to be so clever you can know things that the experts then didn't because of your mighty intellect.

I didn't have you down as a mustard gas apologist as well as an IRA apologist.

[shaunbhoy]

I didn't have you down as a mustard gas apologist as well as an IRA apologist.

You just roll from one mistake to another dontcha? You sure you are cut out for this dynamic debating stuff?

[northernladyuk]

You just roll from one mistake to another dontcha? You sure you are cut out for this dynamic debating stuff?

From you, that is reassuring.

[shaunbhoy]

From you, that is reassuring.

I aim to please.