Holiday Pay

[cojak]

There's a few non-IT folks peed off with us.

Such is life - we didn't want to use umbrellas, we've been forced into it.

[eek]

There's a few non-IT folks peed off with us.

Such is life - we didn't want to use umbrellas, we've been forced into it.

Oh I'm ignoring him as a grade A clueless troll - in fact he's the only person I've ever blocked on LinkedIn.

He sent me a whole pile of PMs in which he revealed a multiple number of items which went from that's slightly dubious through oh boy to utterly mad...

[cojak]

Oh, I’m letting him stew in his own juices…

[lucyclarityumbrella]

It's quite simple I think... it is just down to morals.

From my perspective, the holiday pay is never and will never belong to the umbrella company.

From an employment perspective we will always offer both options, to have it advanced or to accrue it, then the choice is the contractors.

As for repayment, IMO this should never be up for discussion, it should always be paid back to the individual who has legitimately earnt it.

Dear Contractors, add this to the list of questions when you engage with a brolly!

[eek]

And for the complexity of Holiday Pay Chris Bryce / the FCSA has written an excellent article regarding the complexities of it at Due to the Catch 22 of umbrella contractor holiday pay, the law is an ass (contractoruk.com)

Basically there is a problem and there is no way to fix it without breaking the law because it wasn't designed for how umbrella workers are paid.

Worth saying that this has now changed - following the Harpur Trust (Appellants) v Brazel (Respondent) - The Supreme Court judgement the law is now both a complete ass and even more complex than it was before with a lot of specialists advising different things - some right many probably seriously wrong.

On the other hand it isn't actually that difficult to work out how to fix things if you know where to look for the appropriate documentation and think things through..

How many umbrellas manage to do that though is open to question (but Clarity are sorted)...

[eek]

Also worth saying (anyone care to guess what I spent yesterday working on) - and I'm going to go to war on this point

The WTR say that companies can have a defined holiday year but there is no need to have one AND if no defined holiday year exists. the holiday year end defaults to the anniversary of your start date.

Now Umbrella firms have a duty of care which means they DO need to ensure you take holiday..

However, most contractors take holiday during breaks between assignments which (usually) means that contractors start at an umbrella immediately after a 1 or even 3 week break. Which means that forcing a worker to follow a defined holiday year is forcing workers to take holiday when they (and most likely their end clients) don't want or need to, which in all likelihood breaches that duty of care requirements.

Posted here so I can refine the argument as much as actually highlighting the point....

[ladymuck]

If a contractor stays with a particular umbrella for the majority of their work then that umbrella will know when breaks between contracts have taken place and that can be deemed "holiday".

If a contractor has to keep changing umbrellas because of agency PSL roulette, then I can see how this becomes a compliance challenge for umbrella companies.

[eek]

If a contractor stays with a particular umbrella for the majority of their work then that umbrella will know when breaks between contracts have taken place and that can be deemed "holiday".

If a contractor has to keep changing umbrellas because of agency PSL roulette, then I can see how this becomes a compliance challenge for umbrella companies.

The holiday pay issue doesn't come from those who stay with an umbrella long term - it comes from those forced to use a different umbrella or using an umbrella for the first time in a while. The issue is artificial holiday deadlines designed for a particular reason that people are trying to stamp out - but unless you are very, very careful solving 1 problem could create a very different one - which is why I'm not 100% supporting the holiday pay must be paid campaign...

And the compliance issue is actually way bigger than you think as thanks to agency self billing most umbrella's haven't the first clue what work a worker is doing let alone what holiday has been taken... I was explaining that to James Poyser of inniAccounts yesterday.

I've had 3 conversations since Wednesday when umbrellas have asked how can we find out what is going on from the worker / agency as we just don't know - the only time they know anything is when a bulk payment arrives with a remittance advice for work done x weeks ago...

[ladymuck]

The holiday pay issue doesn't come from those who stay with an umbrella long term - it comes from those forced to use a different umbrella or using an umbrella for the first time in a while. The issue is artificial holiday deadlines designed for a particular reason that people are trying to stamp out.

And the compliance issue is actually way bigger than you think as thanks to agency self billing most umbrella's haven't the first clue what work a worker is doing let alone what holiday has been taken... I was explaining that to James Poyser of inniAccounts yesterday.

I've had 3 conversations since Wednesday when umbrellas have asked how can we find out what is going on from the worker / agency as we just don't know - the only time they know anything is when a bulk payment arrives with a remittance advice for work done x weeks ago...

Ah I get you, I guess that's why you said you were posting to refine the argument, as I wasn't sure where your focus was being aimed

[eek]

Ah I get you, I guess that's why you said you were posting to refine the argument, as I wasn't sure where your focus was being aimed

Which part of "Starts at an umbrella....." did you miss?