Reprisal fears?

[eek]

I was wondering why more inside IR35 claims haven't gone to ET for unlawful deduction of ENIC's, AL. A lot of employment contracts are so badly written, and I've seen some shocking Key Information Documents and assignment schedules too, but many still don't consider a legal recourse.

Oh that’s simple - there are cases that show that umbrella firms can deduct their employment costs from the assignment fee they receive.*

now holiday pay is a different matter but that is dependent on the terms and conditions of the umbrella firm employing you and getting it paid in advance as you are paid while legally incorrect wouldn’t get you a pay out at a tribunal *

* now if someone was lowly paid things may be different here but a well paid contractor will be assumed by a employment tribunal to know what they are doing

[northernladuk]

Oh that’s simple - there are cases that show that umbrella firms can deduct their employment costs from the assignment fee they receive.*

now holiday pay is a different matter but that is dependent on the terms and conditions of the umbrella firm employing you and getting it paid in advance as you are paid while legally incorrect wouldn’t get you a pay out at a tribunal *

* now if someone was lowly paid things may be different here but a well paid contractor will be assumed by a employment tribunal to know what they are doing

So again someone investigating the legal avenues because it's unfair without having an actual case then?

[northernladuk]

And as if by magic, i mention posts from people jumping on the 'Sue them' bandwagon before fully understanding the situation and lo and behold and hour later one appears.

https://forums.contractoruk.com/busi...-sue-them.html

Dats spooky

[andymalory]

Oh that’s simple - there are cases that show that umbrella firms can deduct their employment costs from the assignment fee they receive.*

now holiday pay is a different matter but that is dependent on the terms and conditions of the umbrella firm employing you and getting it paid in advance as you are paid while legally incorrect wouldn’t get you a pay out at a tribunal *

* now if someone was lowly paid things may be different here but a well paid contractor will be assumed by a employment tribunal to know what they are doing

It all depends on how the rate was agreed and whether it was made clear that there was a difference between the agreed rate and actual wage. Sometimes that is made clear, sometimes not.

Regardless, the principle of having your day rate made visible on Gov.uk is not ideal, is it? How many contractors would be put off my having this in the public domain?

[WTFH]

How many contractors would be put off my having this in the public domain?

What are you hoping to achieve?
Are you wanting to launch a legal challenge against the government to stop them showing the results of tribunals?

[andymalory]

What exactly are you worried about?

If you believe you've got a strong case, preferrably with relevant examples of cases that went in your favour then I'd say start the process. Vast numbers of claims never make it to court. If it's anything like small claims you'll be required to go through mediation before it goes the whole way anyway so might resolve it there. That way you get most of what you wanted and it never makes it to a judgement.

Problem is what do you think they've done wrong? In nearly every single thread we've had where a contractor wants to sue someone they are just reaching and never had a case when we've pulled it apart. It's usually the first thing people want to do when they are pissed off and feel it's 'unfair' so they threaten to sue. When the details emerge there is no case.

I'd focus on what it is you think they've done wrong, get some legal advice and then where there is a real case start thinking about ET.

I agree with ensuring you have a strong case before even starting. But again, the point I'm trying to get over is that some may be deterred from bringing a case to the ET regardless of its merits, because of fears of reprisal or just generally don't like being in the public domain.

[andymalory]

What are you hoping to achieve?
Are you wanting to launch a legal challenge against the government to stop them showing the results of tribunals?

That would be great, but probably a step too far. I'm raising the question to see how many others would have a problem with this, and perhaps might not seek justice because of the way things are published. Before 2017 this was less of an issue, as you'd have to go somewhere physical to see the judgement details. Now, anyone can find it with very little effort.

For an unlawful deduction of wages claim, I'm not sure the same steadfast commitment to 'open justice' is served by having everything published. For discrimination and other cases, it'll be a different matter entirely.

[northernladuk]

That would be great, but probably a step too far. I'm raising the question to see how many others would have a problem with this, and perhaps might not seek justice because of the way things are published. Before 2017 this was less of an issue, as you'd have to go somewhere physical to see the judgement details. Now, anyone can find it with very little effort.

For an unlawful deduction of wages claim, I'm not sure the same steadfast commitment to 'open justice' is served by having everything published. For discrimination and other cases, it'll be a different matter entirely.

I must admit I can't help you need to take off your silver foil hat. I very much doubt many people will be put off pursuing a valid claim that is likely to result in a compensation payment just because it's hidden away somewhere on a website that realistically that next to no one will ever go digging.

So IMO the answer is no, a vast majority of people will not be in the slightest phased that details will be published in a far corner of the web.

[WTFH]

Now, anyone can find it with very little effort.

Easier, or less easy than finding out company information?

And then the question is: why would anyone spend all their effort trying to find out if you have, or have not, used an ET to resolve a situation? Is it the whole population of the UK, or all those people you read about in the papers, or is it just a scenario you've dreamt up?

If I have an actual case (not hypothetical) and I have exhausted all other options, and the amount of money being withheld was enough to make it worth my effort, and the risk of losing was low, and I had sought professional advice, then I would go for it.
But now you've shifted your fear from "fear of reprisals", which you seem too afraid to tell us what these reprisals might be, to "fear of someone stalking you and finding out what you earned at a point of time in the past"

The internet is not full of stalkers, reading your every post on Facebook, Tinder, Grinder, TikTok, Twitter, Mastodon, Instagram, etc etc who then go off and search companies house and every other government website to find out whether you earned £100 a day or £105.
They don't care about you. You are insignificant. Get used to it.

[eek]

It all depends on how the rate was agreed and whether it was made clear that there was a difference between the agreed rate and actual wage. Sometimes that is made clear, sometimes not.

Regardless, the principle of having your day rate made visible on Gov.uk is not ideal, is it? How many contractors would be put off my having this in the public domain?

No it doesn’t - a clueful person using an umbrella firm would be deemed to know how payments work unless the agency documentation was an outright lie.

Im seriously at a loss as to what you are trying to do here as your second paragraph makes no sense - I don’t see any problem with anyone seeing my day rate (it’s the going rate for my skill set with 20+ years of expertise).