The PS, IR35 and GCloud

[youngguy]

What? The Jasmine example is all about framework and work practices - You provide a product or service off site rather than a day rated bum on seat in front of a clients computer, and it clearly (currently) says using the tool, it will be outside IR35. And the GC or DOS framework will be the only real way to get the project delivery based work going forward in the PS.

The Jasmine example is about a clear deliverable. If you look on G Cloud you will see project management services supporting cloud deployments (in other words bos PM). As NLUk says, G Cloud is cleaning up and cracking down on this, but I have seen bos wrapped up as deliverables (I myself debated whether delivering a project plan, training materials etc was a tangible deliverable ).

Similarly DOS does have some clear deliverables, but there are just as many contractors roles which could be bos. The framework may help steer outside but there are loads of classic contractor roles delivered that way with some fudged words around deliverables.

I don't recall any of the ESS questions being about the procurement route (to be honest I haven't looked at all the CSV so could be wrong here...).

So, in my opinion , I haven't yet seen anything that categorically says a certain framework automatically = outside.

[jonnyboy]

The Jasmine example is about a clear deliverable.

And I go back to my old question of what is a deliverable? Their definition in the example is a web site. But that's just code, how is that different from...

1) A software package which calculates revenue
2) A data warehouse delivered which stores x data in a series of tables
3) A project plan which takes what the customer needs, and the PM goes off sites, works out the dates, and delivers the plan.

I fully 100% agree that BOS contractors are stuffed. As are BBC staff working as contractors who read the weather day in and day out, or present Money Box every Saturday. As are contractors who turn up at 9am and are told by CLient manager Tim to do task thingy for the day, then leaves at 5pm.

But if the PS client wraps up a requirement into a project, a project that can be done off site, that the contractor (now freelancer) quotes for at a total of £40k, and will be delivered at some point in spring 2017.... that is the exact thing Jasmine is doing. As GCLOUD/DO is the framework for agreeing the parcels of work.

[youngguy]

And I go back to my old question of what is a deliverable? Their definition in the example is a web site. But that's just code, how is that different from...

...

But if the PS client wraps up a requirement into a project, a project that can be done off site, that the contractor (now freelancer) quotes for at a total of £40k, and will be delivered at some point in spring 2017.... that is the exact thing Jasmine is doing. As GCLOUD/DO is the framework for agreeing the parcels of work.

I think 'what is a deliverable ' is the key Q as you say.

I am not sure there is a definition? You will certainly get different views about whether a project plan, TNS, comms strategy etc are deliverables or not.

I have actually worked that way, but don't forget many clients do effectively want a bos and it is work for them to look at a schedule of deliverables over 6 months as opposed to just paying a day rate.

Im not suggesting you approach is a dead end, merely that it is not a guarantee.....if all contractors had to do was whip up a deliverable schedule and move to a different framework then everyone would be doing it. Fact is,i don't see ps depts getting away with that, even if they have the desire. Quite a lot of thought goes into the right framework to use and internal procurement generally go with the simplest almost every time (clone)

[youngguy]

. As GCLOUD/DO is the framework for agreeing the parcels of work.

Word on the IPSE forum is that the HO intend to use the ESS tool and treat it as the gospel. Furthermore there does not seem to be any interest in engagements via different frameworks such as DOS.

I know your client is willing to engage via G, but this does start to signify that the mass of PS may (as many of us thought) just do what is easiest for them.

It's going to be very difficult to find 'workarounds' when the client is looking for an easy life.

[eek]

Word on the IPSE forum is that the HO intend to use the ESS tool and treat it as the gospel. Furthermore there does not seem to be any interest in engagements via different frameworks such as DOS.

I know your client is willing to engage via G, but this does start to signify that the mass of PS may (as many of us thought) just do what is easiest for them.

It's going to be very difficult to find 'workarounds' when the client is looking for an easy life.

Yep - the only workarounds will occur if and when the department has continually failed to find anyone who can do the work and still needs it to be done.

[bobspud]

Word on the IPSE forum is that the HO intend to use the ESS tool and treat it as the gospel. Furthermore there does not seem to be any interest in engagements via different frameworks such as DOS.

I know your client is willing to engage via G, but this does start to signify that the mass of PS may (as many of us thought) just do what is easiest for them.

It's going to be very difficult to find 'workarounds' when the client is looking for an easy life.

Yep thats going to be their process until they notice all their contractors are handing in their notice and walking off site. then they will have a rethink....

[BoredBloke]

Yep thats going to be their process until they notice all their contractors are handing in their notice and walking off site. then they will have a rethink....

April should be an interesting time as the notices start flying in. TBH if I were in a PS gig I'd be looking to get out now and avoid the stampede

[eek]

April should be an interesting time as the notices start flying in. TBH if I were in a PS gig I'd be looking to get out now and avoid the stampede

Yep - that's been my advice to anyone who has looked since about June.

Best to get out of the public sector asap and not return until things have settled down which will be at the earliest April 2018....

[TheFaQQer]

April should be an interesting time as the notices start flying in. TBH if I were in a PS gig I'd be looking to get out now and avoid the stampede

That's a message that I gave to The Times when they interviewed me after the budget in March this year - if I was in PS I would have left ASAP, and if I was out I wouldn't consider PS.

[nucastle]

Yep - that's been my advice to anyone who has looked since about June.

Best to get out of the public sector asap and not return until things have settled down which will be at the earliest April 2018....

That's not what you allude to doing though? Haven't you set yourself up on DOS and are going to be offering your wares for sale on there come January (if you get accepted)?