Will contracting go out with a bang or a whimper?

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Does anyone have any idea what the normal outcome of these consultations are? I'm assuming most go through as planned. Or do HMRC actually take any notice and drop\amend some depending on the feedback they receive?

Basically what are peoples thoughts on the proposals being rubber stamped? I'm assuming the chances must be pretty high!

Sometimes they go through as they're originally proposed and sometimes they are modified to some degree - my feeling is that this one will be modified in some way

[pjt]

Sometimes they go through as they're originally proposed and sometimes they are modified to some degree - my feeling is that this one will be modified in some way

Lisa reading over the IPSE response they appear to have raised an alternative which would result in the relief only kicking in after we traveled a defined number of miles. If any changes where made I'd think this would be a sensible approach. Though the report then states the government have made it clear they intend to proceed with the changes. We can only wait until the Autumn budget I suppose.

[ELBBUBKUNPS]

You've missed at bit. They are talking about changing the rules of IR35 to make sure that everyone is inside IR35. And if you're inside IR35...

This being the case do you think they will try and retro apply the changing of the rules ?

thanks

[jamesbrown]

This being the case do you think they will try and retro apply the changing of the rules ?

thanks

No, it isn't a "clarification" of the existing rules. That being said, if they opt for SDC, I don't know how they intend to apply it in legislation (they can't just "ignore" case law on MoO and RoS).

[BlasterBates]

What was the change exactly (e.g. a link or something to Google)?

This was when they started clamping down on contractors:

Foreign workers concerned over pension changes - SWI swissinfo.ch

[WordIsBond]

(they can't just "ignore" case law on MoO and RoS).

Why not? This is a taxation matter, not an employment law matter. They can abolish IR35 and legislate a tax that doesn't mention employment at all, and MoO and RoS become irrelevant.

[jamesbrown]

Why not? This is a taxation matter, not an employment law matter. They can abolish IR35 and legislate a tax that doesn't mention employment at all, and MoO and RoS become irrelevant.

Er, yes, notice your use of the word legislate. I didn't say they couldn't legislate, on the contrary, they would need to legislate. If and when it gets to consultation stage, that will need to be clarified, because they aren't going to achieve their aims by simply declaring that IR35 is now about SDC.

[supersteamer]

Is it a three year programme to implement a new solution following an acquisition or pursuit? 12 months to gather requirements for a new solution? 6 months of coding for a new solution?

My thoughts would be unless you are Architecting/designing/implementing the Database solution it is BAU. I would include a contract to support a 5 yearly technology refresh as NOT BAU, but the intervening support of the live system (revamping, best practices etc) would be BAU.

BAU is not necessarily IR35

There are 3 tests for IR35 as it currently stands: MOO, ROS and SDC.

MOO & ROS are contractual and have very little to do with whatever the work is.
For SDC, if somebody is independently checking XYZ database logs/monitoring systems, fixing any errors, recommending and/or applying capacity/security/performance patches and enhancements at their own discretion or in order to progress vendor-mandated updates then they are not being supervised, directed or controlled by the client.

Many places (mostly the smaller clients) I have worked management tended to have very little interest in BAU work, provided the wheels kept turning and the lights stayed on (if done well BAU work is almost invisible, whether done by a permie, a contractor, an outsourcer etc.). They were far more interested in supervising, directing and controlling the shiny new projects. In this scenario it's actually project work, not BAU, that is more in danger of failing the IR35 tests as currently defined.

[WordIsBond]

Er, yes, notice your use of the word legislate. I didn't say they couldn't legislate, on the contrary, they would need to legislate. If and when it gets to consultation stage, that will need to be clarified, because they aren't going to achieve their aims by simply declaring that IR35 is now about SDC.

I've always assumed the intent to legislate is on the cards. I don't think there is any way they can put any liability on engagers without legislating, and since that has been part of the discussion, I think we can safely conclude that they are quite prepared to legislate, if needed, to get what they want.

[BolshieBastard]

BAU is not necessarily IR35

There are 3 tests for IR35 as it currently stands: MOO, ROS and SDC.

MOO & ROS are contractual and have very little to do with whatever the work is.
For SDC, if somebody is independently checking XYZ database logs/monitoring systems, fixing any errors, recommending and/or applying capacity/security/performance patches and enhancements at their own discretion or in order to progress vendor-mandated updates then they are not being supervised, directed or controlled by the client.

Many places (mostly the smaller clients) I have worked management tended to have very little interest in BAU work, provided the wheels kept turning and the lights stayed on (if done well BAU work is almost invisible, whether done by a permie, a contractor, an outsourcer etc.). They were far more interested in supervising, directing and controlling the shiny new projects. In this scenario it's actually project work, not BAU, that is more in danger of failing the IR35 tests as currently defined.

Supervision isnt currently part of the IR35 tests, direction & control is.

If they get their way supervision will become a very dangerous element for contractors.