Reply to: Enforced free training / IR35 Deemed issue???

[garethevans1986]

I know, especially after reading this - egos - new IR35 guidance

Thanks for the reply cojak.

GE

[cojak]

It'll be 3 separate days training I believe.

The client company was my last perm company I worked for. I've been brought in to do a specific project and I've also invoiced other companies for work under the same limited company whilst working on this contract.

I'm trying to stay outside of IR35 (signing in and out every day), nearly invoked the substitution clause last week but couldn't because my replacement couldn't get the time off his perm job (ex employee of the same client company), I've only really worked on the one project up to now.

The client company IT director doesn't quite understand why I can't just do what he wants me to do as he doesn't understand IR35 and why I can't be seen as an employee of the company.

I was asked to consult for the client company because of my knowledge of their systems where any other IT consultant could but would struggle because they wouldn't have this prior knowledge or experience.

Thanks
GE

Oh Dear. You've got bigger worries than a bit of training I'm afraid...

Take a look at this thread.
http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...t-company.html

[JamJarST]

That's a bad example because safety training could be seen as a legal requirement.

Ok, so how about training on a system used by your client?

[Wanderer]

If I attend a client site and their is a mandatory safety training, I shouldn't bill?

That's a bad example because safety training could be seen as a legal requirement.

[MarillionFan]

No, because it's mandatory training which everyone needs to undertake. It's not direction and control, it's something that everyone needs to do.

Free training? And you can bill for it!!!!

These guys are taking the mickey. Best to withhold your services immediately.

[TheFaQQer]

Is that really necessary? If I attend a client site and their is a mandatory safety training, I shouldn't bill?

No, because it's mandatory training which everyone needs to undertake. It's not direction and control, it's something that everyone needs to do.

[garethevans1986]

I know JamJarST, I also see the point you were trying to point out.

GE

[JamJarST]

The training isn't anything to do with safety/security, it's training on how to use a product which the client company is then planning to use to do data migrations.

GE

I was just using that as an example.

[garethevans1986]

The training isn't anything to do with safety/security, it's training on how to use a product which the client company is then planning to use to do data migrations.

GE

[JamJarST]

Also IR35 is still contract by contract. What else you do doesn't matter.

Still, as we've said before, if everyone has to do it, there's no problem. But if you have to take it to do the job, exactly why did they hire you? You're supposed to be the expert. See how it works?

Your get out of jail cards are (a) don't charge them time for attending the course and (b) if it is task specific training, pay for it yourself, directly or indirectly by free work time.

Is that really necessary? If I attend a client site and their is a mandatory safety training, I shouldn't bill?

[garethevans1986]

Thanks malvolio - It's only me and one other fella who have to go on the training, which they probably didn't realise they would have to do when they were decided to outsource their CRM product.

BolshieBastard - There was 6 months between when I worked for them perm and then contracting. I've contracted for somebody else in between.

GE

[malvolio]

Also IR35 is still contract by contract. What else you do doesn't matter.

Still, as we've said before, if everyone has to do it, there's no problem. But if you have to take it to do the job, exactly why did they hire you? You're supposed to be the expert. See how it works?

Your get out of jail cards are (a) don't charge them time for attending the course and (b) if it is task specific training, pay for it yourself, directly or indirectly by free work time.

[BolshieBastard]

It'll be 3 separate days training I believe.

The client company was my last perm company I worked for. I've been brought in to do a specific project and I've also invoiced other companies for work under the same limited company whilst working on this contract.

I'm trying to stay outside of IR35 (signing in and out every day), nearly invoked the substitution clause last week but couldn't because my replacement couldn't get the time off his perm job (ex employee of the same client company), I've only really worked on the one project up to now.

The client company IT director doesn't quite understand why I can't just do what he wants me to do as he doesn't understand IR35 and why I can't be seen as an employee of the company.

I was asked to consult for the client company because of my knowledge of their systems where any other IT consultant could but would struggle because they wouldn't have this prior knowledge or experience.

Thanks
GE

O-oh! Red flag!!

Working for your ex permie employing company on your first contract is not a good idea and ripe for IR35 pickings.

[garethevans1986]

It'll be 3 separate days training I believe.

The client company was my last perm company I worked for. I've been brought in to do a specific project and I've also invoiced other companies for work under the same limited company whilst working on this contract.

I'm trying to stay outside of IR35 (signing in and out every day), nearly invoked the substitution clause last week but couldn't because my replacement couldn't get the time off his perm job (ex employee of the same client company), I've only really worked on the one project up to now.

The client company IT director doesn't quite understand why I can't just do what he wants me to do as he doesn't understand IR35 and why I can't be seen as an employee of the company.

I was asked to consult for the client company because of my knowledge of their systems where any other IT consultant could but would struggle because they wouldn't have this prior knowledge or experience.

Thanks
GE

[BolshieBastard]

I'm in a bit of a dilemma here with near enough the same problem but the training is being held externally, everything else applies.

I'm edging on the "can't go because I would then be working within IR35" but just want it confirming.

Thanks
GE

Thing is, if it's only one training course and all your other working practices are outside IR35, I dont think there's an issue.

The only time to be worried is when most or all of your (weighted) working practices make it look like you are IR35 caught.

Besides, if attendance on the course is mandatory for the job, it really is a question of attend or dont and likely be asked to leave.