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Previously on "Umbrella company problem with expenses (+£25K owed)"

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  • LisaContractorUmbrella
    replied
    Originally posted by International Adviser View Post
    That's the right way to do it. Unfortunately, it seems that this poor chap believed that there was a watchful eye keeping him safe, only to find out that it was a computer programme that said yes or no, or just said yes to everything.
    Yes indeed - picking the right umbrella company is important

    Leave a comment:


  • International Adviser
    replied
    Originally posted by LisaContractorUmbrella View Post
    The umbrella company should have verified the expenses - we have an online portal but claims are still manually checked - a claim of 500 miles per day should have been picked up purely because it wouldn't be possible to do that sort of mileage and then do a day's work
    That's the right way to do it. Unfortunately, it seems that this poor chap believed that there was a watchful eye keeping him safe, only to find out that it was a computer programme that said yes or no, or just said yes to everything.

    Leave a comment:


  • LisaContractorUmbrella
    replied
    The umbrella company should have verified the expenses - we have an online portal but claims are still manually checked - a claim of 500 miles per day should have been picked up purely because it wouldn't be possible to do that sort of mileage and then do a day's work

    Leave a comment:


  • International Adviser
    replied
    Blame Game

    Originally posted by stek View Post
    I can't see where the brolly is at fault here, the error is entirely yours.

    Imagine if you'd been underpaid, would you feel the same?
    The true position is that in one hand you have been paid expenses in excess of the amounts incurred, whilst on the other had you have sacrificed part of the rate to compensate the Umbrella Company.

    In reality the Umbrella Company are only after setting their accounts straight and getting money from you to settle the Employment Taxes that would have been due if the expenses had been paid out as extra wages.

    So you owe then £25,000 on which they will deduct 13.8% Employers NI and 42% to cover Income Tax and Employees NI. So they will pay you £12,742.

    So the net cost to you is circa £12,200.

    Don't think you can litigate as you don't pay them to process and verify your expenses and clearly the problem with on-line portals is that there is no third party verification. Although if they have a dispensation they should be vetting expenses and making sure that all are valid.

    Leave a comment:


  • lucyclarityumbrella
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    Bearing in mind the umbrella is/was your employer have you called them to go through the situation in detail. Surely that is your first port of call? When you have the exact facts and their take on the situation you can start looking at options.
    The mileage rate is 45p per mile for the first 10,000 miles that you could have been gaining the tax relief on, I say could on the basis of what has been said before, this would only apply if it was the temporary workplace, ie the multiple assignments. However dependant on your contract rate you would need to look at the amount of expenses they were allowing you to put through, if these were excessively high they could have been putting you at risk of being under national minimum wage after deductions. If you want to PM me I can see if I can offer you any advice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Magpie252
    replied
    Originally posted by ASB View Post
    Was there really no point at which you though to yourself "I seem to be being paid net rather more than my gross pay. I wonder if this is right?".
    As the OP has stated he has no savings, he was probably too busy spending his windfall

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  • ASB
    replied
    Originally posted by kennygratts View Post
    What it looks like the umbrella company has done is actually directly pay me at the 40p a mile for the incorrect mileage that I entered. This has gone in as a separate payment added to my pay every month. No questions asked.
    You seem to be saying you were paid this mileage IN ADDITION to your daily rate.

    So, 2,500 miles claimed per week = £1,000 per week.

    Was there really no point at which you though to yourself "I seem to be being paid net rather more than my gross pay. I wonder if this is right?".

    However, there is a possible (but unlikely) case where your arrangements with the party you were actually doing the work for were "rate + travel".

    Leave a comment:


  • TheFaQQer
    replied
    Originally posted by moggy View Post
    Lisa posted the other day, http://forums.contractoruk.com/umbre...-travel-7.html there was a reply from HMRC around this point, which was, as usual clear as mud. Intention is the key here... So if the OP had the intention to work on multiple contracts the fact he couldn't is not his or the Umbrellas fault.
    No she didn't:

    Originally posted by LisaContractorUmbrella View Post
    Not to my knowledge they haven't - if a worker only has a single employment through an umbrella company it's considered a permanent workplace and therefore mileage, subsistence and accommodation can't be claimed as those expenses are only allowable where the workplace is temporary

    Leave a comment:


  • TheFaQQer
    replied
    Originally posted by moggy View Post
    Lisa posted a link the other day, can't be bothered to search.. "call NLUK" but there was a reply from HMRC around this point, which was, as usual clear as mud. Intention is the key here... So if the OP had the intention to work on multiple contracts the fact he couldn't is not his or the Umbrellas fault.
    That link related to whether once you give notice, you have to stop claiming expenses. That used to be the case - once you resign from the umbrella, the location wasn't seen as temporary any more - but no longer the case.

    If you only ever have one gig, then you cannot claim travel and subsistence because the location can never have been a temporary one.

    Leave a comment:


  • moggy
    replied
    Originally posted by Magpie252 View Post
    You have either had the good sense or luck to post this on one of the Professional forums, we have to treat you ‘nice’, if you want flippant reply’s try posting in General, then take cover.

    As FaQQer has correctly pointed out & I alluded too, expenses are not payable for single contracts due to this effectively being your ‘normal’ place of work.

    Have you resigned from the Umbrella, or have they issued you with a P45, if you haven’t resigned or been made redundant you could get another contract then expenses become payable for both.

    If the Umbrella made you redundant by issuing you with a P45 there is a slim chance that you could argue that the intention was to continue contracting.

    If you resigned (to claim JSA for example) then there never was the intention to continue contracting & expenses are not payable.

    Remember you don’t owe £25K, you owe the tax payable on the £25K (i.e. what was refunded tax free.), there’s an argument to be had as too if you owe this to the Umbrella or to HMRC directly.

    I’d be inclined to try and get the Umbrella to agree to a refund of the Employers NI contributions due, then deal with the rest direct with HMRC, if your open and honest with them from the start

    I assume that this income crosses 2 tax years?, I’d contact HMRC asap and be open that that you may have underpaid tax in the previous year and explain the situation, if you’re lucky they’ll change your tax code to recoup the money or agree a payment plan

    You should be able to sort this year’s problems by completing a Self Assessment next April & paying the tax due then.

    Have a look here for what happens when you can’t pay HMRC on time HM Revenue & Customs: Problems paying HMRC: advice for businesses, individuals and tax agents
    Lisa posted the other day, http://forums.contractoruk.com/umbre...-travel-7.html there was a reply from HMRC around this point, which was, as usual clear as mud. Intention is the key here... So if the OP had the intention to work on multiple contracts the fact he couldn't is not his or the Umbrellas fault.
    Last edited by moggy; 17 September 2014, 09:24.

    Leave a comment:


  • Contreras
    replied
    Originally posted by Magpie252 View Post
    Assuming you claimed 120,000 miles:
    First 10,000 @40p plus 110,000 @25p = £31,500
    Less what you might have been able to claim (24,000 miles)
    First 10,000 @40p plus 14,000 @25p = £7,500

    So you may have received between £24,000 and £31,500 tax free depending if expenses are payable, you need to account for your personal tax liability.
    It could be more. First off, the rate should be 45p/mile but OP seems to think it's 40p. If the umbrella were asleep on the job then maybe they managed to pay 40p (or 45p) beyond the 10,000 miles threshold as well. Say 100k miles *extra* @ 45p, that's £45k paid as expenses that should have been paid as salary. In that light £25k tax/NI isn't so outrageous as a ballpark figure.

    OP needs the umbrella to put the claim in writing, with clear justification for the figures. One way to do this (I guess) would be for the umbrella to re-issue the year's pay slips with corrected figures.

    Leave a comment:


  • Batcher
    replied
    Originally posted by kennygratts View Post
    I can claim travel/accommodation... the workplace was temporary as was a short-term contract so that isn't in dispute.

    I am simply asking if I have any legal redress against the umbrella company as they were effectively my employer, or is negligence on there behalf something that I can do nothing about.

    Likewise what my options are legally/financially.

    Rather than providing flippant comments and making a joke of it TheFaQQer, f you can't actual provide something useful keep the comments to yourself.
    Where's Frank Big Bird when you need him?

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  • Magpie252
    replied
    Originally posted by TheFaQQer View Post
    Not necessarily true - under an overarching contract of employment, you'd still be entitled to pay between engagements, holiday pay etc.
    True, but last time I used an umbrella they bundled holiday pay in to your take home etc., didn't pay one month when the invoice/payment was late.

    This was the easiest way I could think to describe the situation without getting technical

    Leave a comment:


  • TheFaQQer
    replied
    Originally posted by Magpie252 View Post
    You're a permie on a zero hours contract, if you don't work, they don't have to pay you. This is why not resigning or being made redundant gives you the opperunity to mitigate things by taking another contract.
    Not necessarily true - under an overarching contract of employment, you'd still be entitled to pay between engagements, holiday pay etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Magpie252
    replied
    Originally posted by kennygratts View Post
    What it looks like the umbrella company has done is actually directly pay me at the 40p a mile for the incorrect mileage that I entered. This has gone in as a separate payment added to my pay every month. No questions asked.
    No, the umbrella has taken 40p/mile from the gross amount available to pay you & forwarded this to you tax free

    For example:
    1. You work 20 days at £400 – the umbrella has a £8,000 pool to work with.
    2. The Umbrella then refunds your expenses, £4,000 in your first month, reducing the pool to £4,000
    3. The Umbrella takes their cut, plus Employers NI etc., this reduces the pool to say £3,000
    4. You pay tax on the remaining pool i.e. £3,000

    Assuming you claimed 120,000 miles:
    First 10,000 @40p plus 110,000 @25p = £31,500
    Less what you might have been able to claim (24,000 miles)
    First 10,000 @40p plus 14,000 @25p = £7,500

    So you may have received between £24,000 and £31,500 tax free depending if expenses are payable, you need to account for your personal tax liability.

    You may also have to recalculate Employers contributions as well, but this is where it gets difficult, some umbrellas have been found to be playing fast & loose with steps 2 & 3 above. Calculating Employers contributions before reimbursing expenses, then pocketing the difference. You need professional advice here

    Originally posted by kennygratts View Post
    So effectively I am a permanent employee of the umbrella company. On this basis until I get the umbrella company to provide a specific breakdown of the figures then to all extent and purpose I would owe them the overpaid amount, or am I incorrect?
    You're a permie on a zero hours contract, if you don't work, they don't have to pay you. This is why not resigning or being made redundant gives you the opperunity to mitigate things by taking another contract.

    Originally posted by kennygratts View Post
    Still no idea how HMRC would fit into this ... I am guessing the umbrella company have offset this against their PAYE and NIC?

    At best you've underpaid tax, at worst you've committed fraud & underpaid tax & you still have no idea why HMRC would be interested

    Leave a comment:

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