Reply to: Are we really thinking of off payroll rules for Private Sector?

[SussexSeagull]

Before the budget I would have put good money on the HMRC steaming ahead with bringing this to the Private Sector in 2019 but with the backlash over NIC I suspect they will be treading carefully trying to tax self employed people.

The Taylor report will be interesting but these things do have a habit of being ignored.

[Mark2009]

Which is why Hammond should hold off on Private Sector - he hasn't even seen the fallout of Public Sector go-live yet.

I work In the private sector ( i.e. ) construction, we will down tools In protest like we did last time It's a very flexible industry and this is Hammonds biggest hurdle to make the industry PAYE will it work I have my doubts, they tried It before banning CIS under IR35 ( working under supervision ) only to bring CIS back one year later, so what was the point in banning It.
I will leave the industry If Hammond gets his way.

[PartOfTheUnion]

It should be the same as it was early last week as the version number hasn't changed from 1.1.1final

Most clients I work with don't know what version control is and just change stuff without updating the version numbers or keeping records of changes.

[eek]

The tool still seems to be receiving updates as the right to sub question has gone through a number of iterations the last few weeks. Today its pretty clear cut.

It should be the same as it was early last week as the version number hasn't changed from 1.1.1final

[munkee]

The tool still seems to be receiving updates as the right to sub question has gone through a number of iterations the last few weeks. Today its pretty clear cut.

[DotasScandal]

ftfy - and I know you are going to disagree but meh....

Hi eek.
Thought you had me on ignore?

[eek]

I'm in this part of the forum to post gibberish based on HMRC's treatment of me following my use of a dodgy loan scheme.

ftfy - and I know you are going to disagree but meh....

[DotasScandal]

Are you in this part of the forums to discuss the changes or just to complain about HMRC?

I'm in this part of the forum to help readers take some altitude so they can see the big picture.

[northernladuk]

I fear than from the level of hubris they're operating from, they might well be deluded that they actually can.

Are you in this part of the forums to discuss the changes or just to complain about HMRC?

[DotasScandal]

If you are saying the legislation may change once the mess explodes, you may be right -- but the disaster will already be all over balance sheets and employment tribunals and everywhere else, and a lot of engagers are going to be in a right mess. That's NOT something they can change retroactively.

I fear than from the level of hubris they're operating from, they might well be deluded that they actually can.

[WordIsBond]

Holiday pay etc is (currently) available to workers as well as employees, which is why the push is going to come from business that workers shouldn't have that particular right and then everyone other than the contractor will be "happy".

If you are saying the legislation may change once the mess explodes, you may be right -- but the disaster will already be all over balance sheets and employment tribunals and everywhere else, and a lot of engagers are going to be in a right mess. That's NOT something they can change retroactively.

[eek]

You've missed what I was saying I think; if inside IR35 contractors get employment rights, then permies will, in theory, be entitled to the same salary as the contractor day rate, i.e. c. £1200-1500 per week rather than the 40k pa that they've been getting. Then back date it....

Yep and the unions knew this back in November... It was one of those times when I wished I had been in London rather than on a conference call as it dawned on them....

The great thing is that I have a response to my letter outlining the issue saying that its been noted - only to watch this mess be continued a week later...

[RonBW]

That might be what business says and they might convince government.

Will the courts agree? Because I think the courts are likely to rule within a year or two that those declared inside IR35 get employment rights. And the hurt that PSBs think they are feeling now is nothing compared to what happens when thousands of inside contractors file claims for holiday pay, etc.

I disagree - if you look at the recent tribunals around the gig economy the judgements have been that people are workers, not employees. It's a massive hurdle to push for full employment rights, hence people not asking for them but taking workers rights. If there is a review of workers rights, then the criteria of being a worker will also be reviewed - that's already happening as part of the Taylor review and the six (seven? eight?) other consultations that the government are currently undertaking into flexible working / self employment / tax motivated incorporation / whatever label someone chooses to put on it. The courts may decide before then that an IR35 caught worker is actually an employee (they could do that now, but haven't - why not?) but when the review comes (and it will come) then the legislation will change to render that inconvenient judgement that an IR35 caught worker is an employee irrelevant - you will be a worker with workers rights, not an employee.

Holiday pay etc is (currently) available to workers as well as employees, which is why the push is going to come from business that workers shouldn't have that particular right and then everyone other than the contractor will be "happy". And when that happens, there is no longer any real incentive for the client to fight that you are outside IR35 - at the moment there is a bit of an incentive because their costs rocket and you have options, when their costs aren't rocketing and you have no option then there is even less reason to care than they have now.

[WordIsBond]

You've missed what I was saying I think; if inside IR35 contractors get employment rights, then permies will, in theory, be entitled to the same salary as the contractor day rate, i.e. c. £1200-1500 per week rather than the 40k pa that they've been getting. Then back date it....

By the time this is done, the Tories may manage to make Corbyn look electable.

[LondonManc]

Ah, but how would you calculate the differential?

Given the true "cost" of a perm is largely the same as a contractor, in any case?

You've missed what I was saying I think; if inside IR35 contractors get employment rights, then permies will, in theory, be entitled to the same salary as the contractor day rate, i.e. c. £1200-1500 per week rather than the 40k pa that they've been getting. Then back date it....