Reply to: Rates

[dynamicsaxcontractor]

Not promising?? A lot of experienced contractors around here are thinking about moving into permiedom.

So thanks a lot for dumping those good paying permie jobs to let us lot jump into them. [emoji3]

Not promising must be the understatement of the year. Its potentially only 6 months left and then the party is over. Oh well, it was fun as long as it lasted.

[cojak]

It is a bit depressing for new contractors like me to know that 15 years ago the rates were almost identical to the ones I'm getting now. That is an impressive amount of money back then!!
It doesn't look as a promising future...

Not promising?? A lot of experienced contractors around here are thinking about moving into permiedom.

So thanks a lot for dumping those good paying permie jobs to let us lot jump into them. [emoji3]

[gables]

It is a bit depressing for new contractors like me to know that 15 years ago the rates were almost identical to the ones I'm getting now. That is an impressive amount of money back then!!
It doesn't look as a promising future...

Hmm, yes and no I'd say, due to different market conditions and there's been a bit of a recession in between. But equally I don't think permie salaries are really much better, I was contracting in a firm in 1994 where the developers were grossing around 32k, I doubt it's much more than that now.

The future will be okay

[LandRover]

It is a bit depressing for new contractors like me to know that 15 years ago the rates were almost identical to the ones I'm getting now. That is an impressive amount of money back then!!
It doesn't look as a promising future...

Good old globalisation, outsourcing, inshoring and mass immigration took care of that!

[AnotherGuy]

It is a bit depressing for new contractors like me to know that 15 years ago the rates were almost identical to the ones I'm getting now. That is an impressive amount of money back then!!
It doesn't look as a promising future...

[Danglekt]

Nope, the scope of the gig changed, I was originally in to develop project plans and the governance framework for a client, at the end of the gig when I'd delivered all the contracted objectives they realised they needed additional expertise to actually programme manage the delivery of the plan that I'd developed.

I rescoped the support my company was providing, upping my day rate in the process to reflect the more complex contracted support they needed, and they chose for the sake of time to work with my company.

There was no control, I worked from home when I liked, went about what needed to be done as I saw fit and subbed in other people for me on a number of occasions - so no - not inside IR35.

When I used the phrase responsibility increasing, I mean I was supporting a broader portfolio to deliver against, not embedded seniority.

[Forgotmylogin]

I managed to more than double my day rate in the space of 2 gigs via contract extensions. The scope of the work I was doing was shifting, and taking on more responsibility. I was basically under selling myself at first, my value was noticed and when it came to extension time I set my stall out.

I don't think i'd do it again like that, but thats because I would make sure my starting position was better!

So you were a disguised permie? I'm guessing you declared yourself inside IR35 for those gigs?

[Danglekt]

I managed to more than double my day rate in the space of 2 gigs via contract extensions. The scope of the work I was doing was shifting, and taking on more responsibility. I was basically under selling myself at first, my value was noticed and when it came to extension time I set my stall out.

I don't think i'd do it again like that, but thats because I would make sure my starting position was better!

[BoredBloke]

I do think that depending on your particular skill and demand there is an opportunity to get higher rates by simply asking for them.

I didn't know what rate to ask for when I left my permie job so starting around £300-400 seemed about right. Over time I've simply increased my rate a) because I can and b) because I think my experience makes me worth the higher rate.

I do have the luxury of having almost all of my clients approach me (either via my website or leads from other developers) and I've only ever done two projects through an agency in the 6 years I've been running my business, one of which was only because I wasn't on my client's preferred supplier list. Most of my clients aren't big enough to have PSLs though.

Upping my rate hasn't reduced the amount of work I get, but I'd say it has lead to better contracts overall. It also gives me a bit of room to negotiate on rate although I'm pretty firm on it. I did experiment with advertising my rate on my website for a while with mixed results - I got fewer enquiries but the ones I did get tended to be higher quality leads. Fewer "I've got an idea for a great new social networking app but I've only got £10k to spend" type emails. I've reverted to not publishing my rate as I prefer to discuss rates and billing after initial contact now.

Now I'm living a 1 hour train journey away from central London, I'm also trying out charging a £25/day premium on my standard rate for on-site work. It doesn't completely cover my travel and subsistence costs but it roughly covers the additional cost since I moved outside of the M25. I work from home about 80% of the time anyway and I'm hoping it will result in fewer wasted days spent on-site sitting at a desk doing the same job I could be doing from home without the pointless 2 hour commute and extra expense.

In short, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss fool's claims as bollocks, I think he/she might just be fortunate enough to work in a sector or have a skill set that is in high demand and was therefore able to chance asking for a higher rate and getting it. Obviously I can't comment on the wider IT contracting market as I only work in a small area of it and I'm not a bum on seat type of contractor doing gigs for big businesses/banks etc. where the market is probably different to mine.

FWIW I wasn't dismissing it I just wondered what it was. It true contractor style I say good on him. He's obviously found a market for his skills and people who are prepared to pay for them.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

I do think that depending on your particular skill and demand there is an opportunity to get higher rates by simply asking for them.

I didn't know what rate to ask for when I left my permie job so starting around £300-400 seemed about right. Over time I've simply increased my rate a) because I can and b) because I think my experience makes me worth the higher rate.

I do have the luxury of having almost all of my clients approach me (either via my website or leads from other developers) and I've only ever done two projects through an agency in the 6 years I've been running my business, one of which was only because I wasn't on my client's preferred supplier list. Most of my clients aren't big enough to have PSLs though.

Upping my rate hasn't reduced the amount of work I get, but I'd say it has lead to better contracts overall. It also gives me a bit of room to negotiate on rate although I'm pretty firm on it. I did experiment with advertising my rate on my website for a while with mixed results - I got fewer enquiries but the ones I did get tended to be higher quality leads. Fewer "I've got an idea for a great new social networking app but I've only got £10k to spend" type emails. I've reverted to not publishing my rate as I prefer to discuss rates and billing after initial contact now.

Now I'm living a 1 hour train journey away from central London, I'm also trying out charging a £25/day premium on my standard rate for on-site work. It doesn't completely cover my travel and subsistence costs but it roughly covers the additional cost since I moved outside of the M25. I work from home about 80% of the time anyway and I'm hoping it will result in fewer wasted days spent on-site sitting at a desk doing the same job I could be doing from home without the pointless 2 hour commute and extra expense.

In short, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss fool's claims as bollocks, I think he/she might just be fortunate enough to work in a sector or have a skill set that is in high demand and was therefore able to chance asking for a higher rate and getting it. Obviously I can't comment on the wider IT contracting market as I only work in a small area of it and I'm not a bum on seat type of contractor doing gigs for big businesses/banks etc. where the market is probably different to mine.

[stek]

What role goes from 220 to 700 a day in 2 and a bit years based on a total of 8 years experience?

Number one rule of CUK club, do not balloon about rates....

[fool]

What role goes from 220 to 700 a day in 2 and a bit years based on a total of 8 years experience?

DevOps. Last response as this is a total thread derail.

5 years working as developer / ops for hosting industry
9 Months Dev & Ops digital agencies
1 year dev in card industry
1/2 year ops startup & digital agency
9 Months Ops Government

But again, the point was that I never got more because I didn't know how to ask for it and take myself seriously.

[BoredBloke]

I wasn't contracting in 2008 but:-

Perm:
Company A: 2007-2009: 13k to 24k p/a
Company B: 2009-2012: 25k to 27k p/a
Company C: 2012: 30k p/a

Contract:
Company A 2013 (3 MONTH): 220 p/d
Company B 2013 (5 MONTH): 320 p/d
Company C 2014 (4 MONTH): 400 p/d
Company D 2014 (3 MONTH): 400 p/d
Company E 2014 (3 MONTH): 500 p/d
Company F 2015 (3 MONTH): 650 p/d
Company F 2015 (6 MONTH): 700 p/d

I have an offer to extend and an alternative at £800 p/d. I'd like to say my rates keep rising because I'm better than the competition ( I think I'm better, they think they're better) but the truth is the reason I keep getting rates rises is mostly because I lie to recruiters about how much I'm currently on. Funnily enough, they always come back with they can only offer me the same as what I'm on.

What role goes from 220 to 700 a day in 2 and a bit years based on a total of 8 years experience?

[BoredBloke]

When I work away I tend to rack up expenses to the tune of about £2k a month. Meaning if I can't expense that then I'd have to earn and draw £24k a year to pay the bills just to allow me to work. So obviously given the implications on my personal tax thresholds that isn't going to happen. So for me it will have to be commutable only work. In the North West rates have not moved from what I can see. Generally my roles still get pitched around the 300 a day mark which is what I was working for t BT in Leeds back in 2010. In London that's 450 to 550. Nothing like having your flexibility curtailed by your own government!

[fool]

All of it. I get high end rates, they have stayed much the same for the last 15 years. So either someone has been continually reskilling or becoming more expert in a niche skillset. That level of rate change over a two year period encompassing eight roles may be right ( ) but is hardly representative or helpful.

It depends who we're trying to help. It doesn't help prove the OPs point, but if she doesn't present any outliers, her numbers probably won't be taken seriously, so it might be helpful to her, despite not being on message.

That's not why I posted it though. I'm going to struggle getting further rate bumps because those in the middle of the road fail to negotiate with the agents. If enough people optimise for that then rates will rise.

Agreed. It would be rather childish to provide false information, and it probably isn't false, but it isn't representative. This is one reason I haven't responded, as my rates are quite variable depending on how much I like the project, among other things. Anecdotally, I would say that rates are quite robust and improving for specialists in science and engineering, but they've been flat lining or worsening for more typical skillsets AFAIK.

I saw the thread days ago and didn't post initially because of this. Now I actually think it's unhelpful because it makes the data look fabriated. In addition, I think it's helpful for others to know that high rates do exist.

For what it's worth, I'm a pretty respectable Developer & Sysadmin. I'm 30 with ~8 years experience. Other than being able to do both jobs, I don't have anything particularly niche on my CV.