Originally posted by jmo21
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Reply to: C# course
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Previously on "C# course"
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Originally posted by oscarose View PostTo put the record straight I'm not against agile and we all know the issues with traditional methodologies.
However your point illustrates very well a risk with agile projects. We agree that requirements aren't fully defined before development starts. In your example, after development has started the customer realises they have overlooked a key requirement(s) and whilst you state this can be prioritised at the expense of another, in reality this is never that straightforward and the project can become a runaway train or diluted e.g. the missed key requirement(s) grab a large chunk of development time or even worse not identified, so a solution is delivered not fit for purpose and back to the drawing board and already over budget.
Hence, the value of the business analyst to extract the key information from the customer asap not half way through development.
Apologies to the OP if this thread has gone slightly off track.
We are in agreement then!
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Originally posted by jmo21 View PostI've worked on way more traditional waterfall driven projects that have been badly project managed and had the exact same scope creep issues.
In situations where the requirements cannot be nailed down 100%, this is EXACTLY when Agile is very good at dealing with things like scope creep.
The "thing" that creeps into scope after the start might be entirely valid. It might be more important than something else. So instead of, with waterfall, telling the customer they'll need to wait til phase 2 or having he project run past the nd date, you can prioritise the new thing at the expense of the other.
Now if you can't drop the other thing then you'll end up going past the end date anyway, but Agile can help you manage the fluidity of requirements very well.
However your point illustrates very well a risk with agile projects. We agree that requirements aren't fully defined before development starts. In your example, after development has started the customer realises they have overlooked a key requirement(s) and whilst you state this can be prioritised at the expense of another, in reality this is never that straightforward and the project can become a runaway train or diluted e.g. the missed key requirement(s) grab a large chunk of development time or even worse not identified, so a solution is delivered not fit for purpose and back to the drawing board and already over budget.
Hence, the value of the business analyst to extract the key information from the customer asap not half way through development.
Apologies to the OP if this thread has gone slightly off track.
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Originally posted by oscarose View PostI agree that getting something in front of the customer quickly does help facilatate a collaborative approach and no doubt certain type of projects are suitable for agile.
However on an agile project, requirements aren't fully defined before development begins and are wide open to the damaging effects of scope creep and needs very strong project management. In my experience this has been lacking in some of the agile projects that have either failed or been heavily diluted.
In situations where the requirements cannot be nailed down 100%, this is EXACTLY when Agile is very good at dealing with things like scope creep.
The "thing" that creeps into scope after the start might be entirely valid. It might be more important than something else. So instead of, with waterfall, telling the customer they'll need to wait til phase 2 or having he project run past the nd date, you can prioritise the new thing at the expense of the other.
Now if you can't drop the other thing then you'll end up going past the end date anyway, but Agile can help you manage the fluidity of requirements very well.
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Originally posted by jmo21 View PostThat is exactly what agile is supposed to be good at dealing with.
I'd say agile can help this lack of clarity by getting something in front of the customer sooner, helping things crystallise sooner.
However on an agile project, requirements aren't fully defined before development begins and are wide open to the damaging effects of scope creep and needs very strong project management. In my experience this has been lacking in some of the agile projects that have either failed or been heavily diluted.Last edited by oscarose; 31 March 2012, 07:46.
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Originally posted by oscarose View PostI’ve seen mixed results from Agile projects mainly due to the lack of clarity of the business requirements.
I'd say agile can help this lack of clarity by getting something in front of the customer sooner, helping things crystallise sooner.
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Originally posted by Scrag Meister View PostI am BASIC to the core for 25 years. MS Quickbasic onwards. Currently Excel VBA, small amount of VB6, so VB.NET would be the sensible way to go but it just isn't as popular as C# currently. I am finding that a whole heap of the contract specs I am being sent are C# based, just because I have done odds and ends of enhancement work and mention it in my CV. Not happy to pursue a role where primary skill requirement is C#.
There are really 2 skills to the .NET family, primarily the .NET framework and then whatever language you stick on top of it.
If you know .Net converting to C# is very easy. My advice would be to simply do a small project at home and use this...
VB.NET and C# Comparison
You can learn it within a weekend and be up to speed within a week.
A few tips for converting which may well catch you out at first...
Methods have (), the intellisense won't put them in for you. Properties don't have () and won't be taken away by intellisense
You have to specify ToString() if you want something to be a string, the compiler won't guess for you.
Don't forget the ;
Originally posted by Durbs View PostYou reckon? Depends what your background is I suppose, I have to work in both but just find VB to be so much more readable at a glance than C# with its curly brace garbage all over the shop. Same with Java, I find that a 'messy' language to read.
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If you want a easy guide into C# and .Net books I'd recommend Murachs books
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Murachs-C-Jo.../dp/1890774227
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Originally posted by Scrag Meister View PostI am BASIC to the core for 25 years. MS Quickbasic onwards. Currently Excel VBA, small amount of VB6, so VB.NET would be the sensible way to go but it just isn't as popular as C# currently. I am finding that a whole heap of the contract specs I am being sent are C# based, just because I have done odds and ends of enhancement work and mention it in my CV. Not happy to pursue a role where primary skill requirement is C#.
There are really 2 skills to the .NET family, primarily the .NET framework and then whatever language you stick on top of it.
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Originally posted by Scrag Meister View PostI am BASIC to the core for 25 years. MS Quickbasic onwards. Currently Excel VBA, small amount of VB6, so VB.NET would be the sensible way to go but it just isn't as popular as C# currently. I am finding that a whole heap of the contract specs I am being sent are C# based, just because I have done odds and ends of enhancement work and mention it in my CV. Not happy to pursue a role where primary skill requirement is C#.
There are really 2 skills to the .NET family, primarily the .NET framework and then whatever language you stick on top of it.
Agree C# is the best way contract-wise, far more work and its a very saleable skill to have but I find (and this probably goes against the language vs rates stats out there) that the VB.NET roles command a little more cash as there are simply less people who could fill the role.
Most .Netters I've worked with can comfortably use either but the majority of the newbies are solely using C# hence a bit of market saturation.
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Originally posted by Durbs View PostYou reckon? Depends what your background is I suppose, I have to work in both but just find VB to be so much more readable at a glance than C# with its curly brace garbage all over the shop. Same with Java, I find that a 'messy' language to read.
To the OP, seriously, dont bother with formal training, just get a couple of books and set yourself an actual app to write. Choose say, a Twitter client. Sit down and write one referring to your books or Google when you get stuck. It wont take you long to write and at the end you'll have learnt 1000% more than any class could teach you. Then go over your code now you understand it better and re-code it to make it better, then repeat and repeat.
There are really 2 skills to the .NET family, primarily the .NET framework and then whatever language you stick on top of it.
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Originally posted by Durbs View PostYou reckon? Depends what your background is I suppose, I have to work in both but just find VB to be so much more readable at a glance than C# with its curly brace garbage all over the shop. Same with Java, I find that a 'messy' language to read.
GE
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A class which is built around project work could be OK though, you basically just want someone to review what you've done and point out any horrible things so you don't learn them as a habit.
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