Reply to: Public sector contracting

[Manic]

Yes agreed, will be asking for some written confirmation. Thanks for the rec, will check it out.

As NLUK suggests, if you have written confirmation it is outside, it's a public sector client subject to the rules surrounding determination, it matters not what your contract or working practices suggest as the liability rests with the engager.

[Jay12]

Hello there.

Posting here, finding it difficult with the search function not returning anything too relevant for this company.

I am considering a role with NHS Property Services. I have been told the role is outside IR35 and the contract review from QDOS has come back clean aside from 1 clause. Wording around "providing substitute" should be stronger.

My question is does anyone have experience with NHS PS and can you shed any light on their contracts and working practises in relation to IR35?

Yes agreed, will be asking for some written confirmation. Thanks for the rec, will check it out.

[northernladuk]

Hello there.

Posting here, finding it difficult with the search function not returning anything too relevant for this company.

I am considering a role with NHS Property Services. I have been told the role is outside IR35 and the contract review from QDOS has come back clean aside from 1 clause. Wording around "providing substitute" should be stronger.

My question is does anyone have experience with NHS PS and can you shed any light on their contracts and working practises in relation to IR35?

They should be able to give you evidence of why you are outside and then you are golden surely?

Read the opening posts by The FaQQer in this thread

https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/...bout-ir35.html

[Jay12]

Hello there.

Posting here, finding it difficult with the search function not returning anything too relevant for this company.

I am considering a role with NHS Property Services. I have been told the role is outside IR35 and the contract review from QDOS has come back clean aside from 1 clause. Wording around "providing substitute" should be stronger.

My question is does anyone have experience with NHS PS and can you shed any light on their contracts and working practises in relation to IR35?

[1manshow]

What issues precisely? I'm finding it pretty simple - if it's 'inside' then my quoted rate is higher by the amount my accountant told me is the equivalent of my 'outside' rate - and my service is adjusted to suit. After all, I'm looking for return on investment of my time.

Interesting stats from a recent Hays presentation on IR35:
78% of public sector clients have found it harder to attract skilled temporary or contract workers.
76% of departments have lost highly skilled contractors.
47% of projects lost at least a quarter of their contractors.
50% of contractors have said they will now never work in the public sector if caught by IR35.

There was much more, but I think those demonstrates the damage quite nicely!

These stats are not very interesting at all. What did we expect was going to happen when we told people "We are going to reduce your pay for no good reason, but make you continue to do the same work ".

They may have had a leg to stand on if they started to provide employee benefits, but otherwise the only interesting statistic that remains is why more people haven't left!

[man]

This seems to be causing a lot of issues with my friends, i thought it was all in "stone" now?

What issues precisely? I'm finding it pretty simple - if it's 'inside' then my quoted rate is higher by the amount my accountant told me is the equivalent of my 'outside' rate - and my service is adjusted to suit. After all, I'm looking for return on investment of my time.

Interesting stats from a recent Hays presentation on IR35:
78% of public sector clients have found it harder to attract skilled temporary or contract workers.
76% of departments have lost highly skilled contractors.
47% of projects lost at least a quarter of their contractors.
50% of contractors have said they will now never work in the public sector if caught by IR35.

There was much more, but I think those demonstrates the damage quite nicely!

[ITcon]

This seems to be causing a lot of issues with my friends, i thought it was all in "stone" now?

[eek]

Hopefully the fuss and additional expense kicked up by this change affecting the PS will mean the government are pressured to take a simpler approach:

1. If the contract is to an individual then they must be paid PAYE for all income (in effect always inside IR35).
2. If the contract is to a company then normal b2b rules apply (invoices and VAT).

Of course for us the challenge would then to be to obtain contracts to our Ltd rather than named individual, with the substitution rights (and other b2b stuff) automatically in place.

That was already covered in the Travel and Subsistence rules in 2015. The fear expressed by unions (with evidence to prove the allegation) was that companies would force people into creating limited companies to enable T&S to continue to be reclaimed.

So the odds of your example occurring is zilch... The Taylor report will tell you how things will happen and I expect explicit rules and definitions for employees and workers...

[Hobosapien]

Legal obligation is one thing but if a trust has to make a decision between hiring a lawyer to resolve IR35 for IT staff or hiring another doctor then I can see why they just go the "everyone's inside" route.

Hopefully the fuss and additional expense kicked up by this change affecting the PS will mean the government are pressured to take a simpler approach:

1. If the contract is to an individual then they must be paid PAYE for all income (in effect always inside IR35).
2. If the contract is to a company then normal b2b rules apply (invoices and VAT).

Of course for us the challenge would then to be to obtain contracts to our Ltd rather than named individual, with the substitution rights (and other b2b stuff) automatically in place.

[smatty]

Seen a few PS gigs around here, rates seem to have gone up by £1-200/day. A lot of them are also advertising "outside IR35", but those ones also seem to be higher rate which is promising. From contacts in PS a lot of people have gone to private sector over the past few years and won't consider public regardless, so maybe supply and demand.

Legal obligation is one thing but if a trust has to make a decision between hiring a lawyer to resolve IR35 for IT staff or hiring another doctor then I can see why they just go the "everyone's inside" route.

[northernladyuk]

I have been on the bench for 2 months, and am staying their until I get a sensible offer, I have had a few gigs in the NHS in my time but agencies have been ringing me with the odd ridiculous offer (the only terms they offer now are PAYE or UMBRELLA) If no suitble offer comes along ill go and do something else in life, quite obviously government see us contractors as tax dodging scum. One of the young ladies who rang me from an agency said the government just want everyone paying the same tax. (I almost did but didn't rise to the bait) See how the NHS is coping is 6 months

This topic is covered in a separate sub-forum - may be of interest to you.

Public Sector IR35

[Yonmons]

I have been on the bench for 2 months, and am staying their until I get a sensible offer, I have had a few gigs in the NHS in my time but agencies have been ringing me with the odd ridiculous offer (the only terms they offer now are PAYE or UMBRELLA) If no suitble offer comes along ill go and do something else in life, quite obviously government see us contractors as tax dodging scum. One of the young ladies who rang me from an agency said the government just want everyone paying the same tax. (I almost did but didn't rise to the bait) See how the NHS is coping is 6 months

[JohnM]

There are more and more public service contracts no going unfilled for months and months because of insistence on being within IR35.

All this is going to do in the long term is push up the rates (significantly) that the public service has to pay to get contractors which will end up costing the government far more than they receive via IR35 tax income. Either that or they will have to fill posts with the lower end of the contractor market and quality will take a dramatic hit.

An absolutely idiotic idea storing up loads of trouble and cost for the government at a later date.

I would hate to be a development manager for a public service organisation at the minute.

[jollyrogers]

What a complete cluster f**k! What is the point of the digital tool if all trusts say inside IR35; no exceptions?

However many of us on here could see this coming when it was first mooted.

qh

Completely agree and by what I have heard lots of trusts will be in serious trouble come Monday. I wish I had stayed in the private sector

[quackhandle]

I had arranged my renewal a month ago and received signoff, completed the HMRC digital tool, sent a copy to the hiring manager. Got a signed contract and SoW putting me firmly outside. Hiring manager rang me yesterday to say HR have said inside no exceptions. Feel sorry for the poor chap as he is potentially loosing 50% of his department after tomorrow.

I will be challenging but I might wait till after tomorrow in case an elenth hour reverse decision is made, dont want to burn bridges by sending a poohgram

What a complete cluster f**k! What is the point of the digital tool if all trusts say inside IR35; no exceptions?

However many of us on here could see this coming when it was first mooted.

qh