Reply to: If a client will change their mind mid-way.

[Northernlass]

Yup, very tricky and one (among several) flaws w/ the legislation. It's hard to know whether a supply is fully contracted out between the most extreme situations that are presented by way of illustration. The problem is that, if you're not quite close to one of the extremes, then you may end up with an SDS from the wrong company in the supply chain. In principle, that shouldn't matter (because the supply chain is responsible and liable), but in practice it does matter if the different companies take a very different view and the contractor has little leverage in affecting a determination or a change in determination.

Definitely dodged a bullet there. So much cloak and daggers and even down the wire things were changing. Doesn't bode well at all so I also think you've made the right decision. This time next month when you are sat in a contract you enjoy and pays what you expected this will be nothing more than a nice little story for you to tell other contractors.,

Tuck in to your mucky fat sarnies at lunch and then go smash a contract this afternoon.

Hi Northernlad,
So true, you just know when its not right - its comes down to instincts sometimes and if it aint right it just aint. Lesson learned for sure.
I am off a brew and some prep for this interview.
Have a good one!!

[eek]

On a positive note I have an iterview today so lets see we get on

Good luck

[northernladuk]

Hi James, hope you are ok. I think so too

Definitely dodged a bullet there. So much cloak and daggers and even down the wire things were changing. Doesn't bode well at all so I also think you've made the right decision. This time next month when you are sat in a contract you enjoy and pays what you expected this will be nothing more than a nice little story for you to tell other contractors.,

Tuck in to your mucky fat sarnies at lunch and then go smash a contract this afternoon.

[Northernlass]

Yup, very tricky and one (among several) flaws w/ the legislation. It's hard to know whether a supply is fully contracted out between the most extreme situations that are presented by way of illustration. The problem is that, if you're not quite close to one of the extremes, then you may end up with an SDS from the wrong company in the supply chain. In principle, that shouldn't matter (because the supply chain is responsible and liable), but in practice it does matter if the different companies take a very different view and the contractor has little leverage in affecting a determination or a change in determination.

Fwiw, you probably made the right call - hopefully, you'll find something better, soon.

Hi James, hope you are ok. I think so too

[jamesbrown]

Fwiw, you probably made the right call - hopefully, you'll find something better, soon.

[Northernlass]

Hi all, I thought you might be interested where I have landed with this contract....

On Friday, my consultancy sent me a copy of the CEST tool determination as they could not get hold of the end client to provide the SDS. The report indicated an outside IR35 contract - I havent actually used the CEST tool before so I had alot of questions to ensure that the answers were correct and inline with my view of this contract at this stage.
He also sent me my contract to review over the weekend - I confirmed that I would review but I would not sign without an SDS determination from the 'client' whomever that should be and after reading up on the govenment website I thought the end client would be most appropriate in this case.
After review of my contract, I realised what had been agreed verbally was not an accurate reflection of the actual contract and I queried the term which was orgially 6 months and now had chage to 78 man days (to cover the deliverables) for the intiial phase of the project. Payment terms had change from 7 to 14 days after milestone/deliverables had been met. The contract was 50% less then the original discussions with alot of risk and felt unsure about the IR35 determaination.
If the determation had changed to IR35 part way through, it would have meant that I couldnt travel (the contract is London and I nearby Sheffield) and I was required onsite in September for a couple of days a week.
I spoke to my consultancy about my concerns and informed me that the end client was due to produce the SDS but by this point it didnt feel the right contract for me to move forward with and so I pulled out.

I think it was good move for me personally as I dont want to be in the same situation as another contractor on this forum who is further down the line.
On a positive note I have an iterview today so lets see we get on

[eek]

ok thats a no go then I may try QDOS or IR35 shield. I'll let you know how I get on. Thanks.

You do want one of those to actually check the contract for you but you need active support from the end client while doing so as otherwise it's not going to be worth the effort.

What you really need is to ask for the SDS determination and how they perceive the project to be. Which boils down to Does the client see the contract as one of employment / replacement / additional (short term) staff or one of external consultancy.

[Northernlass]

Yup, very tricky and one (among several) flaws w/ the legislation. It's hard to know whether a supply is fully contracted out between the most extreme situations that are presented by way of illustration. The problem is that, if you're not quite close to one of the extremes, then you may end up with an SDS from the wrong company in the supply chain. In principle, that shouldn't matter (because the supply chain is responsible and liable), but in practice it does matter if the different companies take a very different view and the contractor has little leverage in affecting a determination or a change in determination.

I doubt IPSE can help - we've seen little evidence of them round here for years and their chairman used to be a regular poster until he tried to run me out of this site.

ok thats a no go then I may try QDOS or IR35 shield. I'll let you know how I get on. Thanks.

[eek]

I see, there lies the problem as I wonder if I will actually gain the determination from either the conultancy of the end client.
Do you use IPSE at all? I wonder if I should sign up with them and see if they can provide some advice in this case. Thanks.

I doubt IPSE can help - we've seen little evidence of them round here for years and their chairman used to be a regular poster until he tried to run me out of this site.

[Northernlass]

Yup, very tricky and one (among several) flaws w/ the legislation. It's hard to know whether a supply is fully contracted out between the most extreme situations that are presented by way of illustration. The problem is that, if you're not quite close to one of the extremes, then you may end up with an SDS from the wrong company in the supply chain. In principle, that shouldn't matter (because the supply chain is responsible and liable), but in practice it does matter if the different companies take a very different view and the contractor has little leverage in affecting a determination or a change in determination.

The issue is that you need to separate out the factors that make you inside/outside IR35 from the factors that make the supply fully outsourced or not. Your having no D&C imposed is a pointer towards the contract being outside of IR35. Your interacting with staff from A is a pointer to the contract between A and B not being a fully outsourced supply of services, rather a supply of people. You may well be outside of IR35, but it's sounding less like an outsourced supply. Again, though, there is no one here that can definitively answer this for you and you will need the supply chain to answer it.

I see, there lies the problem as I wonder if I will actually gain the determination from either the conultancy of the end client.
Do you use IPSE at all? I wonder if I should sign up with them and see if they can provide some advice in this case. Thanks.

[eek]

James and eek, referring to James scenario 1 & 2, I am contracted to B on a B2B contract, so in my case B is hiring in a contractor on a T&M basis and I will be interacting with staff/suppliers from A but with no direction, I will be directing the project. So would it be the consultancy that provides the SDS in this case?

It is the end client (A) as you are interacting with them. Were the consultancy B providing project management support there are circumstances where B would be the people making the determination here but based on everything you've said so far it's up to the end client (so A) to do so.

And yes this stuff is way more complex than it needs to be as no one has produced a simple flowchart on how to determine things as it gets very complex very quickly.

[jamesbrown]

I would be trying to determine whether all parties in the supply chain have the same opinion about your IR35 status (but some of them may be unwilling to answer because they don't believe it's their responsibility) and then ensuring that you have an SDS (from whomever) that backs this up. I would also be looking carefully at the contractual terms (in your contract, not the upper contract, which you cannot see).

[jamesbrown]

James and eek, referring to James scenario 1 & 2, I am contracted to B on a B2B contract, so in my case B is hiring in a contractor on a T&M basis and I will be interacting with staff/suppliers from A but with no direction, I will be directing the project. So would it be the consultancy that provides the SDS in this case?

The issue is that you need to separate out the factors that make you inside/outside IR35 from the factors that make the supply fully outsourced or not. Your having no D&C imposed is a pointer towards the contract being outside of IR35. Your interacting with staff from A is a pointer to the contract between A and B not being a fully outsourced supply of services, rather a supply of people. You may well be outside of IR35, but it's sounding less like an outsourced supply. Again, though, there is no one here that can definitively answer this for you and you will need the supply chain to answer it.

[Northernlass]

Yup, very tricky and one (among several) flaws w/ the legislation. It's hard to know whether a supply is fully contracted out between the most extreme situations that are presented by way of illustration. The problem is that, if you're not quite close to one of the extremes, then you may end up with an SDS from the wrong company in the supply chain. In principle, that shouldn't matter (because the supply chain is responsible and liable), but in practice it does matter if the different companies take a very different view and the contractor has little leverage in affecting a determination or a change in determination.

James and eek, referring to James scenario 1 & 2, I am contracted to B on a B2B contract, so in my case B is hiring in a contractor on a T&M basis and I will be interacting with staff/suppliers from A but with no direction, I will be directing the project. So would it be the consultancy that provides the SDS in this case?

[jamesbrown]

Yup, very tricky and one (among several) flaws w/ the legislation. It's hard to know whether a supply is fully contracted out between the most extreme situations that are presented by way of illustration. The problem is that, if you're not quite close to one of the extremes, then you may end up with an SDS from the wrong company in the supply chain. In principle, that shouldn't matter (because the supply chain is responsible and liable), but in practice it does matter if the different companies take a very different view and the contractor has little leverage in affecting a determination or a change in determination.