If a client will change their mind mid-way.

[jamesbrown]

Hi James, thanks for the reply. I would be working on the second option with the consultancy, so contract alligned to milestones and deliverables and I would invoice once the deliverable has been produced. So this would be fixed price and a business to business contract with the consultancy. I have already requested the consultancy provides the SDS and put the pressure on, he has produced the CEST outcome and waivering with the end client at this stage as to who produces the SDS. To note, the end client is actually public sector and last I knew contracts are deemed 'inside' for public sector end clients.

I am due to sign on Monday (or not as the case may be) and so just trying to ensure all ducks are in a row in the 'new world' of contracting so there is no confusion at a later stage etc.

Ok, it does sound as though it's a fully outsourced supply (consultancy SDS), but it's hard to be 100% sure. Fwiw:

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-man...anual/esm10010

[jamesbrown]

Did you see the first example of an Outside to Inside IR35 change in determination earlier this week Contract has been retrospectively declared inside IR35 - Contractor UK Bulletin Board

I was busy on Thursday so only picked it up late on (after a lot of dodgy advice from others).

No, I missed that one...

[Northernlass]

The Public sector will offer both inside and outside IR35 contracts based on their actual needs Police National Computer Application Development Team members up to 5 individuals (initially) - Digital Marketplace is an example of 1 where everyone is expected to be inside IR35 (I post it as it's very rare for digital Marketplace contracts to be inside, they usually bypass that Marketplace and go direct to agencies / consultancies.

If it really is a fixed priced bit of work then you shouldn't have a problem but the issue you will have is that the consultancy may be selling it differently to how you are selling it and that is where the problem lies.

I would you say you are correct, on the CEST tool when asked 'how will the worker be paid' he has entered an option of 'An hourly, daily or weekly rate' but verbally has said you could argue that this is fixed price. The contract (which I am currently reviewing) shows deliverables and number of man days and the day rate confirmed which does indicate fixed price. You could argue it one way or another I suppose as to what suits your best interest but unsure how this contract would land legally.
I just want someone to take responsibility and confirm the SDS and lets get moving - very frustrating. Thanks.

[Northernlass]

Ok, it does sound as though it's a fully outsourced supply (consultancy SDS), but it's hard to be 100% sure. Fwiw:

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-man...anual/esm10010

Thanks James, I will review now.

[Northernlass]

No, I missed that one...

I have been reading this post, which is very interesting and applicable to my situation if I dont get sorted at this early stage then then potentially I could be in the same situation.

[eek]

I would you say you are correct, on the CEST tool when asked 'how will the worker be paid' he has entered an option of 'An hourly, daily or weekly rate' but verbally has said you could argue that this is fixed price. The contract (which I am currently reviewing) shows deliverables and number of man days and the day rate confirmed which does indicate fixed price. You could argue it one way or another I suppose as to what suits your best interest but unsure how this contract would land legally.
I just want someone to take responsibility and confirm the SDS and lets get moving - very frustrating. Thanks.

If they are talking about man days then you are looking at a T&M contract it isn't fixed price - that's just a maximum budget.

Fixed price would be something like develop Wordpress website with X pages using commercial modules with Y changes to the initial design. The scope of work and the contract would at no point mention an hourly or daily rate.

For the power platform work we do - we do offer a fixed scope piece of work. It's a set of options from which you can pick upto X bits from a pick and choose menu that ends up totalling say 10 days work. The one thing I'm very clear of is that at no point is time or hourly / daily rates mentioned - it's all based on story board points which we transform into time well away from the paperwork.

[jamesbrown]

Agree with eek that it is not fixed price. As to whether it's a fully contracted out service to the consultancy, that will depend on the facts, but if you're working with staff from the end client, it's unlikely.

[Northernlass]

If they are talking about man days then you are looking at a T&M contract it isn't fixed price - that's just a maximum budget.

Fixed price would be something like develop Wordpress website with X pages using commercial modules with Y changes to the initial design. The scope of work and the contract would at no point mention an hourly or daily rate.

For the power platform work we do - we do offer a fixed scope piece of work. It's a set of options from which you can pick upto X bits from a pick and choose menu that ends up totalling say 10 days work. The one thing I'm very clear of is that at no point is time or hourly / daily rates mentioned - it's all based on story board points which we transform into time well away from the paperwork.

Thanks for the clarification, that is good to know so I should in this case be dealing with the end client for the SDS. I will pursue this and see how I get on, on Monday.

[jamesbrown]

Thanks for the clarification, that is good to know so I should in this case be dealing with the end client for the SDS. I will pursue this and see how I get on, on Monday.

No, that really depends. Fixed price and fully contracted out are not the same things. Business A can contract Business B to deliver a website without any involvement of staff from Business A beyond the initial spec and Business B can decide to hire contractors on T&M to deliver it (or fixed price, as they see fit).

[jamesbrown]

In other words:

scenario 1: A contracts B to supply people to deliver a website for A. The people (contractors with PSCs) work diligently with staff from A to deliver the website according to the instructions of A. The company responsible for the SDS is A.

scenario 2: A contracts B to deliver a website. B gets the specs from A and then decides how to deliver the website. B decides to hire contractors on T&M to deliver the website. The contractors work under the instruction of staff from B and have no interaction with staff from A. The company responsible for the SDS is B.