Originally posted by northernladuk
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Previously on "My story, and how it's relavent to recent IR35 determinations and corporate scapegoat"
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Originally posted by BrilloPad View PostOpinions are like bottoms. We all have one - no-one wants to hear about anyone elses.
Sadly you have entirely missed the point. Still, never mind....
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Originally posted by BrilloPad View PostOpinions are like bottoms. We all have one - no-one wants to hear about anyone elses.
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Originally posted by JohntheBikebut they do have some level of influence!
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Originally posted by phillyleads View PostThis is exactly the type of misguided thinking that benefits only those who stand to gain from our collective suffering. We suffer for different reasons but we still suffer. Let' stop and look at the elephant in the room, who is not suffering. Maybe then it will become clear just how "convenient" all the suffering is to the elephant.
That is different to NHS workers being forced but he current corrupt government to become "contractors".
But it is not different to people who choose to become contractors and are only interested in working for one company in one location for several years doing one job that could equally be done by a permanent employee.
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Originally posted by phillyleads View Postour contribution to our collective suffering is mostly due to ignorance and NOT malevolence.
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Originally posted by WTFH View PostYou don't agree, but that doesn't mean that after however many decades working for one company, with no possible substitute and no desire to look elsewhere for work, that you represent what contracting is about.
You are exactly the sort of person that HMRC are going after - and the reason why the rest of us are suffering.
I see three kinds of people here:
- Those who truly, in mind and in practice, operate as independent contractors. As so beautifully described by @cojak in https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/ir35-reform/129193-forced-into-contracting-read.html
- Those who heard the buzz word "contracting" and either entered into it willingly or forcefully without knowing what they were getting into and therefor susceptible to being exploited by their soon to be masters.
- Those who understand enough about contracting but with a false sense of believe as to just how far the "tax benefits" extend when operating under a limited company. The ultimate goal here is to reduce the tax liability and maximise net take-home. They have no sense of what true freedom is and the responsibilities that comes with it. They have no objections to being slaves to their masters and even though some are oblivious to the fact most use the excuse of proclaimed "financial benefit" to justify their true inner suffering.
The problem, as I see it, is that on a community/worker class level is that group 2 and 3 are characterised as being one in the same by group 1, resulting in material and psychological grievances between [group 1] and [group 2+3].
I'm sorry, but this has been described by the courts in many employment status disputes. The 2nd and 3rd group have been described by various high/supreme courts as being an "intermediate class of worker" or "limb b" and who are subordinate and usually carries out the work personally. Subordination does NOT and can NOT exist in group 1, yet somehow, on top of the already misguided grievances between the groups, they are now all grouped under one umbrella as "Self-employed", aka independent contractor!! No wonder it takes a supreme court judge to untangle this mess! Yet somehow we think we have all the answers by pointing fingers at one another?
How can three groups of people said to represent a single group when their ideology is fundamentally different. This is not a black and white problem and cannot be solved with force or economic penalties. In my opinion it would require exposing the elephant, educating the ignorant and punishing those who choose to continue after being so educated.
I hope you can see just how counter-productive these kind of remarks are. I'm not suggesting that we are somehow faultless in our ocean of despair, but our contribution to our collective suffering is mostly due to ignorance and NOT malevolence. The same cannot be said of those pulling the strings.Last edited by phillyleads; 20 February 2020, 00:46.
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- Those who truly, in mind and in practice, operate as independent contractors. As so beautifully described by @cojak in https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/ir35-reform/129193-forced-into-contracting-read.html
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Originally posted by Finance Contractor View PostIf you were forced to incorporate, and earned no more than a perm employee, why did you stay there? We’re there no other roles available at other companies?
Sorry for your situation but I can’t get my head around how you could end up in a situation where you have to start consider tribunals etc. Why not leave for a better situation on another companies payroll?
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Originally posted by cojak View PostYep, that’s how I read it too PAC.
The OP should have read this first... Forced into contracting? Read this first.
(Although I appreciate that he doesn’t sound like a minimum wage kind of guy.)
I can clearly see how my "mentality" (you refer to it as these people) use to be of the type as described in your post (Forced into contracting? Read this first.). You did a great job in writing that post and clearly highlighted the true distinct nature between real independent contractors and gig-economy workers forced to work through limited companies.
I hope I can one day put to use the knowledge that I have acquired and have the freedom that I now seek.
It's true what they say: "You don't know what you have until you lose it". For me, that meant proving the existence of my master's chains around my ankles only to realise that I never want to be chained again!
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Originally posted by pacontracting View PostSo what you are saying is that if found inside, you can take them to the county court and receive over 100,000 (I'm guessing pounds) which you will then pay to HMRC after the investigation for having been found inside? So as well as collecting VAT for HMRC, you are suggesting contractors collect 'lost' employers NI too - in a roundabout way?
In all seriousness though - I understand what you were saying. It seems you were forced to incorporate and this is exactly what the IR35 regulations are about - to prevent employers taking advantage of their staff by avoiding NICs.
Most professional contractors are not in this position. They go into contracting with their eyes open, wanting to provide professional services to clients, very much under a contract for services basis. They are happy to forego the 'employment' perks for running their own lives.
Anyway, this mentality obviously added to my prior experiences as a contractor (New Zealand, 5 years). Unfortunately, I've never had the opportunity to meet and work alongside true independent contractors. Maybe one day, now that I have a better understand of what it takes to really be free when contracting and that standing your ground and being independent is crucial.
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Originally posted by BrilloPad View PostTry this: -
So client says you are an employee. You say you are not an employee. So you sue for employee rights.....
Now try this bit: -
I sort of agree. But the master here is HMRC. The fight against here is against HMRC. That was lost when retrospection came in.
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Originally posted by northernladuk View PostTried to read twice. Gave up both times. Anyone care to summarise?
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Originally posted by malvolio View PostHmmm.... Have you been talking to JtB?
And if your "client" has decided not to use PSC contractors for their own reasons and so hasn't made a determination of any kind...?
And your basic premise is wrong. Most contractors in my fairly wide experience don't want to be employees of any kind. It's not about rights - I get all the ones I need from my own company, thanks - but the freedom from being someone's servant.
And finally, we have been saying very loudly hat your new permanent/umbrella/agency temp/whatever contract needs to be as far away as possible from your previous freelance one. Anyone who simply changes status without a completely new contract is a fool.
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Originally posted by malvolio View PostWell that's going well. Best estimates put it that overall tax income will go down by about £2.5bn a year as a result of these changes....
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