Reply to: Are MSP also considered inside?

[cojak]

Obviously I know that IR35 doesn't apply to permanent employees. You are confusing matters.

The question is whether permanent staff of consultancies (or is I call them MSP/PSC) contracted out to clients on fixed term contracts will be included in the IR35 audit done so by clients. I can't make it any clearer.

For example BT has a permie staff member, BT pick up a role at a law firm doing software upgrades. They place said BT employee on site at the client for 35 hours a week, he is paid by BT. From the perspective of the internal direct employee IT staff of the law firm he is a contractor. Whether he is contracting through BT or his own limited company, there is no difference. So if they are not being included in IR35 then they should be. All I am saying.

Oh, so it's your opinion.

Well if that's all you're saying then that's OK 'cos it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Thread closed.

[cojak]

Obviously I know that IR35 doesn't apply to permanent employees. You are confusing matters.

The question is whether permanent staff of consultancies (or is I call them MSP/PSC) contracted out to clients on fixed term contracts will be included in the IR35 audit done so by clients. I can't make it any clearer.

Consultancies assign permanent employees on the basis of a Purchase Order. The consultancy employee performs the work, the consultancy invoices against the purchase order and the client pays the invoice.

What you are describing doesn't make sense to me. Your description is that a person is employed twice for the same piece of work, once by you and once by the client.

If that's the case, then the person is doubly not affected by IR35.

[northernladuk]

What do you do for a living you sound like a right ****.

You are right but not sure why that has anything to do with what I do for a living???

[PeterSim]

There is no 'think' about it but he won't listen. Even if he is right (cough) what does it matter?

What do you do for a living you sound like a right ****.

[northernladuk]

I think you are wrong. It matters if they contract via BT (BT's staff/PAYE tax paid to the liking of the treasury) or not (even if own LTD's staff /PAYE tax paid at minimum if at all, but see >5% ownership).

There is no 'think' about it but he won't listen. Even if he is right (cough) what does it matter?

[pscont]

Obviously I know that IR35 doesn't apply to permanent employees. You are confusing matters.

The question is whether permanent staff of consultancies (or is I call them MSP/PSC) contracted out to clients on fixed term contracts will be included in the IR35 audit done so by clients. I can't make it any clearer.

For example BT has a permie staff member, BT pick up a role at a law firm doing software upgrades. They place said BT employee on site at the client for 35 hours a week, he is paid by BT. From the perspective of the internal direct employee IT staff of the law firm he is a contractor. Whether he is contracting through BT or his own limited company, there is no difference. So if they are not being included in IR35 then they should be. All I am saying.

I think you are wrong. It matters if they contract via BT (BT's staff/PAYE tax paid to the liking of the treasury) or not (even if own LTD's staff /PAYE tax paid at minimum if at all, but see >5% ownership).

[northernladuk]

So if they are not being included in IR35 then they should be. All I am saying.

That's nice. Thanks.

Can we close this thread now?

[northernladuk]

What about your wife has 96% and she is director of you LTD. You have 4% and do the job, she does the admin.
Humor me, why does IR35 apply in this case?

Because you won't get a contract as agents want you to be majority shareholder and pointless doing it as you only make 4% of the money.

Making stupid scenarios doesn't help anything.

[PeterSim]

The term staff is my instance means permanent employees.

The permanent employees of consultancies are not affected by IR35.

The associates or contractors contracted by consultancies are affected by IR35.

I don't really know how clearer I can be without getting suspicious...

Obviously I know that IR35 doesn't apply to permanent employees. You are confusing matters.

The question is whether permanent staff of consultancies (or is I call them MSP/PSC) contracted out to clients on fixed term contracts will be included in the IR35 audit done so by clients. I can't make it any clearer.

For example BT has a permie staff member, BT pick up a role at a law firm doing software upgrades. They place said BT employee on site at the client for 35 hours a week, he is paid by BT. From the perspective of the internal direct employee IT staff of the law firm he is a contractor. Whether he is contracting through BT or his own limited company, there is no difference. So if they are not being included in IR35 then they should be. All I am saying.

[pscont]

ESM8045 - Employment Status Manual - HMRC internal manual - GOV.UK

Where the intermediary is a company, the following conditions must be satisfied for the legislation to apply:

the worker (or their associates) has a material interest in the company

“Material interest” is defined as meaning:

Beneficial ownership of, or the ability to control, directly or indirectly more than 5% of the ordinary share capital of the company; (...)

What about your wife has 96% and she is director of you LTD. You have 4% and do the job, she does the admin.
Humor me, why does IR35 apply in this case?

[PeterSim]

There is provision in the draft legislation that says small companies are exempt.

Large companies making policy decisions about what type of worker they want in their business is not related to competition law. Therefore it will affect companies that cannot accommodate those policy changes, albeit that most of them are likely to be small.

IANAL

Small companies in that context is referring to the clients not the limited companies (whether MSP or PSC) doing the work itself.

[ladymuck]

No I am being serious, I am sure there is something in competition law the prohibits making smaller companies being put at a disadvantage like this.

There is provision in the draft legislation that says small companies are exempt.

Large companies making policy decisions about what type of worker they want in their business is not related to competition law. Therefore it will affect companies that cannot accommodate those policy changes, albeit that most of them are likely to be small.

IANAL

[cojak]

The term staff is my instance means permanent employees.

The permanent employees of consultancies are not affected by IR35.

The associates or contractors contracted by consultancies are affected by IR35.

I don't really know how clearer I can be without getting suspicious...

[PeterSim]

Long and short of it, the employee of BT doesn't use an intermediary so they are unaffected.

If BY uses a contractor who does use an intermediary then yes they are

Technically the employees of my limited company do not use an intermediary. The employees are paid directly from the LLC. Now I have worked for BT and been placed at clients sites before and I always got paid from BT directly no matter where I worked. That is no different to working in your own limited company.

The only difference is that in the one I had more shares and was considered the director and the other I had shares but was not considered the director.

[PeterSim]

Staff of consultancies are not affected by IR35.

Because they're staff.

Definition of staff: permanent employees.

I assume you mean staff with the client? Even though they might be considered staff they are still usually paid through PAYE from their MSP. Would it matter where they are paid from to qualify as staff in "your" definition of staff.