Reply to: My accountants are suffering due ot the April 2020 reforms

[jmo21]

My accountant retired last month, and sold his client and staff to another accountancy firm.

I only found out when they asked me to register the new company with my HMRC online account for VAT, and I asked "who is XYZ Ltd".

Someone in the office phoned, and told me what happened. She said it was down to all the changes happening. I said I was disappointed I hadn't been told/emailed. She said they (the office staff) were told not to publicise it

I haven't named the new accountant above because she said it had come as quite a surprise to all the office staff, things had been hectic for them, and they were probably a little nervous about their own jobs.

If I wasn't considering what to do about my own Ltd myself, I might well have looked to move accountants.

[BrilloPad]

I would say that representative bodies have let HMRC win. Individuals could do very little against HMRC.

I understand what you say and in some ways agree.

However the amount of abuse on CUK for victims of DTA and LC leaves much to be desired. It just opens the floodgates, whether you agree or disagree with them. Only this morning there was a vitriolic attack on LC victims. In professional!

I still think the best way of bringing HMRC under control is via loanchargejustice.com . Which is basically suing HMRC officers for lying. Whether or not you agree with DTA or LC, HMRC must be bought under control.

[JohntheBike]

Why should the government go against their HMRC overlords?

This is nothing to do with the government. It is just contractors and HMRC. And contractors have let HMRC win.

I would say that representative bodies have let HMRC win. Individuals could do very little against HMRC.

[BrilloPad]

But will the government listen? Of course not.

Why should the government go against their HMRC overlords?

This is nothing to do with the government. It is just contractors and HMRC. And contractors have let HMRC win.

[Maslins]

Accountants “losing clients” as contractors opt for PAYE to avoid IR35 pitfalls

It's becoming news now.

But will the government listen? Of course not.

Even I don't feel IR35 changes should be scrapped just to keep contractor specialist accountancy firms in business...and I'm of course going to be at one extreme when it comes to bias re this!

I have seen a few posts on accountant's websites about why it's still worthwhile to keep your Ltd Co even when working inside IR35. Having read their reasons, personally I can't help but feel it's disingenuous, and more a desperate attempt to avoid the accountancy firm losing clients.

If you take on a 3 month inside IR35 contract, and think there's a good chance contracts after that will be outside, then yes, keep your company ticking over until the future is more clear. Otherwise, if reality is you accept your work will be inside IR35 for the foreseeable future, then I struggle to be convinced it's worth keeping the company. Inside IR35 you basically lose all the tax benefits of running a Ltd Co, whilst simultaneously not getting any of the employment benefits/rights. Ie seems worst of both worlds to me.

So...whilst I wouldn't suggest clients rush to do anything without giving some consideration to a few months down the line, we are saying to most our clients who accept they'll be considered inside IR35 going forwards, that closing is likely the best option.

[sira]

My accountant said he's losing about 10-20% of his clients. Luckily for him, they only make up 25% of his total client base.

Things will get much worse, this is just the start.

[webberg]

You might find your winker emoji removed there sir.

A propos your point, the HMRC might hear, possibly listen, but definitely not (re)act.

And, after an undefined period of time after April 2020, there will be bunting and celebration about how they managed to clear the national debt with this action.

National debt £1.84tr

One off benefit from contractor world - around £3bn.

Annual effect of IR35 reform (i.e. additional tax) perhaps £1bn on a very good day.

In 1,000 years, all will be good.

[simes]

You might find your winker emoji removed there sir.

A propos your point, the HMRC might hear, possibly listen, but definitely not (re)act.

And, after an undefined period of time after April 2020, there will be bunting and celebration about how they managed to clear the national debt with this action.

[ChimpMaster]

Accountants “losing clients” as contractors opt for PAYE to avoid IR35 pitfalls

It's becoming news now.

But will the government listen? Of course not.

[JohntheBike]

Well I think it's fair to say that because of the early cases fought by PCG and others, we've all pretty much known how to operate outside IR35 for the last 20 years. I wouldn't call that disastrous failure.

we've all pretty much known how to operate outside IR35 for the last 20 years

yes, but there are many, including members of IPSE, who were not able to do this because of the restricted contracts and working practises. Mine while at HP, was a good example. However, I believe the policy of the PCG and IPSE has only been to push the IBOYOA ideology, whereas it was proven that even BOS could be judged as not employees of their client. I believe they failed to capitalise on that because of policy dogma. As far as I can see, most of the cases where HMRC have lost, had strong elements of IBOYOA, e.g. multiple clients. The disastrous failure in my opinion, is the inability to prevent what we are now faced with, by not being more aggressive towards the issues in the early days.

[mudskipper]

IPSE are only now circulating their position to many interested parties, especially clients, and highlighting the issues, especially warning of the risk of employment benefits claims. They steadfastly refused to do this in the early years and preferred to keep pushing the ideology of IBOYOA, which clearly has failed disastrously.

Well I think it's fair to say that because of the early cases fought by PCG and others, we've all pretty much known how to operate outside IR35 for the last 20 years. I wouldn't call that disastrous failure.

[webberg]

I disagree with this statement.

...

The reforms are already having an impact and they haven't even come into force yet. The entire ecosystem built around I.T. contracting will not survive for long. And the government, in it's dragon-chase for ever increasing tax receipts will ultimately find that they are trying to scrape a barrel that they themselves have punched a hole into.

Clearly we will have to wait and see.

My view is that the number of outside IR35 contractors will fall dramatically in Q1 2020.

Some of the reasons you mention will be to blame for that (big corporations retreating from the risk) and the small company market will not be big enough to keep the numbers steady.

Mid size firms willing to take a risk (and perhaps litigate that by getting bespoke - and not machine generated - in/out decision) will pick up some talent, but again not enough to absorb the fall out from Big Co.

Ultimately however, those used to taking home 72% or so of a day rate, will want those days to return after a couple of years of permiedom.

Absent a policy U turn I can unfortunately see tax schemes being offered to tempt people back into this world.

A tax scheme is hardly rocket science. Even the present rules permit at least three different schemes that I can think of. We will not and do not offer such to clients, but if I can think of them, others can.

[dx4100]

Expect a lot of work in shutting down companies soon.

And then a load more work opening new companies when everything has settled.

Accountants' real fear should be automation.

My accountant practically doesn't do anything... He basically just helps me correct the odd mistake in FreeAgent it seems...

[dx4100]

Problem is for IPSE to be active it also needs active members - how many people have sent a letter/email to their MP on IR35 reform? Probably not many

Contractor writes to MP and says HEY I DON'T LIKE IR35...

MP forwards email to HMRC...

Doesn't take HMRC long to work why you might not like IR35...

Your first line of defense against IR35 is not attracting attention

[swamp]

Expect a lot of work in shutting down companies soon.

And then a load more work opening new companies when everything has settled.

Accountants' real fear should be automation.