Reply to: Just had a chat with client about next year...

[oliverson]

I remember prior to 2005 we contractors used to get B2B contracts all over Europe like Holland, France, Belgium etc, I consulted there through my UK ltd, I invoiced through the Ltd and got paid direct into the Ltd, either in sterling or Euros... then all that was stopped, no contracting except through payroll company, with taxes and payroll fees taken away at source, this made it non viable for me to contract again in Europe... I think the UK just following suit with this IR35... of course there are still some cases that could consult through UK ltd there, same way there will be contractors that are able to get outside IR35 contracts here after April, but not the majority...
There are still a few European countries that would permit you to work through your own consulting UK ltd, but thanks to Brexit, many of European employer wont consider a Brit due to uncertainty.

WTF?!?!

[SandyD]

I remember prior to 2005 we contractors used to get B2B contracts all over Europe like Holland, France, Belgium etc, I consulted there through my UK ltd, I invoiced through the Ltd and got paid direct into the Ltd, either in sterling or Euros... then all that was stopped, no contracting except through payroll company, with taxes and payroll fees taken away at source, this made it non viable for me to contract again in Europe... I think the UK just following suit with this IR35... of course there are still some cases that could consult through UK ltd there, same way there will be contractors that are able to get outside IR35 contracts here after April, but not the majority...
There are still a few European countries that would permit you to work through your own consulting UK ltd, but thanks to Brexit, many of European employer wont consider a Brit due to uncertainty.

[Manic]

So, had a permie offer. Lucky (I suppose) at 100k + bonus, live a long way from the smoke so expenses are high (rent and travel), this is based from home, consultancy type stuff with expensed travel. Reading threads on here I'd be mad not to at least in the short term. Means giving up the remaining 3 months of my contract and immersing myself in a personal development plan

Wish I had a crystal ball to see the future. Decisions decisions.

[TygerTyger]

Anyone else care to share what's going on in their world?

Hi all - long time lurker here - been a great source of useful info here and I'm grateful to the regulars.

I'm in banking with several years contracting behind me. Fortunate to have had no bench time during the period so healthy warchest, low mortgage and no other debts.

Current position is contract expires end of year and considering options - option is there to flip to perm or alternatively grit teeth, stay in flexible working but accept changeable market conditions and possible (probable!) bench time

Perm role will be pretty much what I'm doing now so some IR35 investigation concerns and basic likely to top out at 60/65K - though not really started any meaningful conversations. Decent enough benefits - pension, health, plenty of holidays ya de yada ... but not blown away with the basic and limited team culture to speak of - not many smiling faces around at the mo.

Generally seeing a wild fluctuation in salaries and rates on the contract market - even with contract roles that seem a perfect fit I'm getting nowhere. Spoken with agents and either the roles don’t materlalise, are filled by others. Applied for a contract role one eve last week at 11 PM … by 9 AM the following day, the agent had 120+ enquiries and no doubt that's a common story.

Properly on the fence with next move - feels like I'm sleepwalking into a decision being made for me.

[JohntheBike]

I believe that the end client will be fine with this one. The responsibility will be with the software house, unless they are just body shopping.
What is the commercial model they use? Are they offering SOW and project deliverabls to the end client? If they are then the end client can probably wash their hands of it.
If the client pays the software house a day rate per developer then the client may well have a problem they are not aware of.

I'm afraid I don't know the answers to your questions. From my personal point of view, MyCo is issued with a purchase order and MyCo invoices the software house. Earlier contracts were through an agency, where there was no purchase order and MyCo was paid by self billing invoices. I guess because the only communications so far had been from the software house, then the end client isn't involved. I can't see that the end client hasn't considered the issues, they'd be pretty stupid not to.

[Lance]

I work for a software house which supplies contractor services to several end clients. One of my colleagues, who is close to the action, has seen no evidence that one end client is doing anything about the issues, although the software house is approaching the issues carefully and have already declared that they will not be making blanket assessments.

Given that the regulations appear to require the end clients to make the determinations, even with this structure, this may have a knock on effect to the contractors. Who knows!

I'm wondering how software houses will fare. Ignoring any IR35 implications for me for a moment, theoretically, the software house that I work for could ask me to help with another client of theirs. Clearly if the current end client did not require my services any more, but another end client did, then my contract, which is with the software house, might only change to reflect the new end client.

So how would the end clients fare in this scenario?

I believe that the end client will be fine with this one. The responsibility will be with the software house, unless they are just body shopping.
What is the commercial model they use? Are they offering SOW and project deliverabls to the end client? If they are then the end client can probably wash their hands of it.
If the client pays the software house a day rate per developer then the client may well have a problem they are not aware of.

[northernladuk]

I've been obliged to make more.

Plenry of time to do that in such a long BAU gig.

[JohntheBike]

OK, so don't complain that people have to go find out for themselves. Although, 20 or more years later, your particular powder ought to be fully desiccated...

your particular powder ought to be fully desiccated

I've been obliged to make more.

[malvolio]

what I have learnt over the years, is to keep my powder dry and wait until such time that I have to use it. It may be that I won't need to use it, which will suit me fine.

OK, so don't complain that people have to go find out for themselves. Although, 20 or more years later, your particular powder ought to be fully desiccated...

[JohntheBike]

Who knows. Did you learn nothing from your 20 years in IPSE? Giving them the material quoted and asking them to read it might be a good start. Leaving it to others is never a good idea, since it's your income that's at risk.

what I have learnt over the years, is to keep my powder dry and wait until such time that I have to use it. It may be that I won't need to use it, which will suit me fine.

[malvolio]

I work for a software house which supplies contractor services to several end clients. One of my colleagues, who is close to the action, has seen no evidence that one end client is doing anything about the issues, although the software house is approaching the issues carefully and have already declared that they will not be making blanket assessments.

Given that the regulations appear to require the end clients to make the determinations, even with this structure, this may have a knock on effect to the contractors. Who knows!

I'm wondering how software houses will fare. Ignoring any IR35 implications for me for a moment, theoretically, the software house that I work for could ask me to help with another client of theirs. Clearly if the current end client did not require my services any more, but another end client did, then my contract, which is with the software house, might only change to reflect the new end client.

So how would the end clients fare in this scenario?

Who knows. Did you learn nothing from your 20 years in IPSE? Giving them the material quoted and asking them to read it might be a good start. Leaving it to others is never a good idea, since it's your income that's at risk.

[JohntheBike]

It's gone out to a lot of people AIUI, as IPSE have pushed it to their membership plus I've seen it on both LinkedIn and Farcebook.. There are several other variations on the same theme from a range of sources. If clients are too dim to go looking for advice, that's really down to them, rather than those trying to help.

If clients are too dim to go looking for advice, that's really down to them

I work for a software house which supplies contractor services to several end clients. One of my colleagues, who is close to the action, has seen no evidence that one end client is doing anything about the issues, although the software house is approaching the issues carefully and have already declared that they will not be making blanket assessments.

Given that the regulations appear to require the end clients to make the determinations, even with this structure, this may have a knock on effect to the contractors. Who knows!

I'm wondering how software houses will fare. Ignoring any IR35 implications for me for a moment, theoretically, the software house that I work for could ask me to help with another client of theirs. Clearly if the current end client did not require my services any more, but another end client did, then my contract, which is with the software house, might only change to reflect the new end client.

So how would the end clients fare in this scenario?

[malvolio]

Do we know what organisations IPSE are sending this analysis to? or are they just expecting them to search for it?

It's gone out to a lot of people AIUI, as IPSE have pushed it to their membership plus I've seen it on both LinkedIn and Farcebook.. There are several other variations on the same theme from a range of sources. If clients are too dim to go looking for advice, that's really down to them, rather than those trying to help.

[ladymuck]

Bloody hell. So basically it comes down to my subjective view of the risk levels of each option and/or whether I follow the herd mentality or not?

Great.

It shouldn't be all that subjective. You need to look at the contract and ensure the working practices back it up. You need to ensure the client thinks the same way you do. Then, you need to document everything to make sure that all the things agreed on are recorded.

[JohntheBike]

Can I suggest to anyone who gets into this position that they ask their client (or even their Human Remains people) to have a careful read of this precis of the reality. It might help focus their minds a little...

Do we know what organisations IPSE are sending this analysis to? or are they just expecting them to search for it?