Reply to: Who to ask about IR35 status

[cojak]

Enough.

Time to agree to disagree - go and look up the law yourselves.

thread closed.

[JohntheBike]

I don't have time for a playground "yes it is, no it's not" debate here.

If you want to think that the law is misleading, fine.

Otherwise, you'll excuse me for telling the people here what the law says.

Otherwise, you'll excuse me for telling the people here what the law says

the law says that you have the legal right to ask for clarification of your employment status and you are allowed to provide any evidence to assist with that process. You seem to be supporting establishment propaganda by not accepting this.

[webberg]

misleading again, and you know full well what options are available.

I don't have time for a playground "yes it is, no it's not" debate here.

If you want to think that the law is misleading, fine.

Otherwise, you'll excuse me for telling the people here what the law says.

[JohntheBike]

It's absolutely NOT misleading.

The end client makes the determination as to in/out. That is the law.

Yes that can be challenged but ultimately if the client decides you are "in", then there is nothing you can do except perhaps walk.

An SDS challenge is long way from overturning an "in" decision.

there is nothing you can do except perhaps walk

misleading again, and you know full well what options are available.

[webberg]

that's misleading. You have the legal entitlement to challenge the SDS and the assessor must respond withing 48 days.

It's absolutely NOT misleading.

The end client makes the determination as to in/out. That is the law.

Yes that can be challenged but ultimately if the client decides you are "in", then there is nothing you can do except perhaps walk.

An SDS challenge is long way from overturning an "in" decision.

[JohntheBike]

To the OP - it's not your place to make the "in/out" determination. That falls on the end client and you have no (legal) say in that.

The present supplied of people (consultancy) becoming a supplier of services (consultancy) will be looked at very carefully by HMRC and the consultancy is likely to be on the wrong end of tax liability, penalties etc if they are not really supplying services.

you have no (legal) say in that

that's misleading. You have the legal entitlement to challenge the SDS and the assessor must respond withing 48 days.

[webberg]

To the OP - it's not your place to make the "in/out" determination. That falls on the end client and you have no (legal) say in that.

The present supplied of people (consultancy) becoming a supplier of services (consultancy) will be looked at very carefully by HMRC and the consultancy is likely to be on the wrong end of tax liability, penalties etc if they are not really supplying services.

[Paralytic]

However as I understand from April it's the client who makes the determination. So I need to understand who to kick about my determination status (bare in mind, the end client isn't located in UK!)

So the actual question is: who determines who is responsible for making the determination? The end client not being in the UK does add another layer of complexity.

I'd be asking the people you have your contract with - the agency.

[cannon999]

I'd be *very* wary assuming that. You'd be daft to think that HMRC won't have considered that people would try band together to set up a "small consultancy" to try to avoid the need for a determination.

See this (old but still relevant): IR35 reforms: Where consultancies are caught

Effectively, if the work the contractor is doing for a client would otherwise be classed as employee work, it falls under IR35, nomatter the chain of command from that client to the contractor's PSC. A question that can help here is: Is the consultancy providing a resource or a service?


(I'm mostly ignoring the "don't need to worry about IR35" comment above, but want to add that you always need to worry about it - remember the only change in April 2020 is who makes the determination)

I should probably rephrase. I am 100% sure that my working practices put me well outside the IR35 as I am providing a service. I choose my hours, where I work and choose which work I accept and which I do not accept. Sometimes I will work 20 hours sometimes I will work 30, and other times 50. I am deffinitely in control of the service I am providing and I actually run a company on the side which isn't related to my contracting one.

However as I understand from April it's the client who makes the determination. So I need to understand who to kick about my determination status (bare in mind, the end client isn't located in UK!)

[Paralytic]

Nobody said that.

???

cannon999 specifically said that if engaging via a consultancy of less than 50 people

then I don't need to worry about IR35 as my client is exempt due to the size?

[malvolio]

stion that can help here is: Is the consultancy providing a resource or a service?


(I'm mostly ignoring the "don't need to worry about IR35" comment above, but want to add that you always need to worry about it - remember the only change in April 2020 is who makes the determination)

Nobody said that. Understanding IR35 and behaving as a service providing professional is a key part of your job as a contractor, something some of us have been saying for at least 15 years. If more people took notice of that kind of thinking, we'd all be a lot better off (in several senses!)

[Paralytic]

So if a chain ia layed out like so Contractor -> Agency -> Consultancy (Small company under 50 people, essentially a software shop) -> End client, then I don't need to worry about IR35 as my client is exempt due to the size?

I'd be *very* wary assuming that. You'd be daft to think that HMRC won't have considered that people would try band together to set up a "small consultancy" to try to avoid the need for a determination.

See this (old but still relevant): IR35 reforms: Where consultancies are caught

Effectively, if the work the contractor is doing for a client would otherwise be classed as employee work, it falls under IR35, nomatter the chain of command from that client to the contractor's PSC. A question that can help here is: Is the consultancy providing a resource or a service?


(I'm mostly ignoring the "don't need to worry about IR35" comment above, but want to add that you always need to worry about it - remember the only change in April 2020 is who makes the determination)

[cannon999]

"Early next year" is too imprecise. You need to ensure the final payment is made before the end of March to escape the new rules. However it appears on the face of it that your client is the consultancy, not the end client. Read the quoted guidance very carefully...

An ongoing support contract, properly drafted, should be a mile away from IR35 anyway. I assume that will be between you and the consultancy, so they need to accept a proper B2B contract for the service, else you're back to square one.

So if a chain ia layed out like so Contractor -> Agency -> Consultancy (Small company under 50 people, essentially a software shop) -> End client, then I don't need to worry about IR35 as my client is exempt due to the size?

[malvolio]

"Early next year" is too imprecise. You need to ensure the final payment is made before the end of March to escape the new rules. However it appears on the face of it that your client is the consultancy, not the end client. Read the quoted guidance very carefully...

An ongoing support contract, properly drafted, should be a mile away from IR35 anyway. I assume that will be between you and the consultancy, so they need to accept a proper B2B contract for the service, else you're back to square one.

[Paralytic]

Have you read these?

April 2020 changes to off-payroll working for clients - GOV.UK

and

Fee-payer responsibilities under the off-payroll working rules - GOV.UK