Reply to: Disagreeing with client IR35 determination

[jamesbrown]

and no Queen's speech either.
This is why the FTPA is such a problem as it allows a dysfunctional government to carry on at the whim of parliament.

Yup, agree with that. Very damaging legislation, brought about in the worst possible circumstances to legislate (a weak coalition, virtue signalling).

[jamesbrown]

Thinking this through - I wonder if what clients might do is set up some sort of liability with contractors, so that if you get marked out of IR35 and later found to be in, client will collect the funds (insured) from you? Could be the answer to this whole thing...

Transfer of liability is completely independent of the client's own liability. Take two scenarios, both quite likely, by way of example. One, the PSC is liquidated (OK, the contract could attempt to introduce a personal liability, but I think enforcement would then become very difficult - it will be hard enough otherwise). Two, the liability to HMRC must be settled first.

What's more likely is that clients insure themselves directly. A liability on the PSC effectively means a liability on them insofar as it falls on them first.

[Lance]

Bottom line, without a budget and a FB progressing to an FA.... absolute chaos.

and no Queen's speech either.
This is why the FTPA is such a problem as it allows a dysfunctional government to carry on at the whim of parliament.

[northernladuk]

oak trees grow from acorns and I guess the Tolpuddle Martyrs would now be amazed at what their protest has ultimately achieved.

Useful.. thanks...

[northernladuk]

Thinking this through - I wonder if what clients might do is set up some sort of liability with contractors, so that if you get marked out of IR35 and later found to be in, client will collect the funds (insured) from you? Could be the answer to this whole thing...

No. Why would clients bother doing that? They generally use agents because they want nothing to do with onboarding contractors so no way will they set up a whole new process and people just to suit us.

There is also a lot of risk around this they won't want to touch with a barge pole.

[PerfectStorm]

Thinking this through - I wonder if what clients might do is set up some sort of liability with contractors, so that if you get marked out of IR35 and later found to be in, client will collect the funds (insured) from you? Could be the answer to this whole thing...

[JohntheBike]

But surely if you are via a brolly you are technically employed?

Just thinking about who they cover and then looking at their website I am struggling to believe how this will be of any use. I can't believe it will do anything close to what a 'proper' union would do.

I can't see them helping you through expensive or complex court cases or anything.

Happy to be proven wrong.

oak trees grow from acorns and I guess the Tolpuddle Martyrs would now be amazed at what their protest has ultimately achieved.

[northernladuk]

I am! Community are moving into self employed people.

Anyone forced to go through an Umbrella would be covered by them.

But surely if you are via a brolly you are technically employed?

Just thinking about who they cover and then looking at their website I am struggling to believe how this will be of any use. I can't believe it will do anything close to what a 'proper' union would do.

I can't see them helping you through expensive or complex court cases or anything.

Happy to be proven wrong.

[jamesbrown]

if there's no budget taxation doesn't just cease. It will continue. And spending will just continue.
IR35 legislation could potentially be a bill on its own, as long as it wasn't brought in by the government.

Er, no.

A Finance Act does not provide the Gov't with the authority to borrow, but it does provide the authority to tax, in particular on taxes that are renewed annually, as well as the provisional authority to tax on any measures introduced within a particular Finance Bill (which must be passed within 5 months IIRC, otherwise the provisional authority is lost and the taxes must be refunded). There are many important taxes that are renewed annually, like income tax and corporation tax. VAT and excise duties can continue though.

Bottom line, without a budget and a FB progressing to an FA.... absolute chaos.

[JohntheBike]

I am! Community are moving into self employed people.

Anyone forced to go through an Umbrella would be covered by them.

that's interesting news.

[JohntheBike]

Not that I think it will do them any good but I imagine someone will.

IPSE is (was?) currently supporting such a case. Someone else with nothing to lose and is suitably motivated, could very well do likewise There are still some who believe in following a principle, whatever the cost or outcome. Remember the rallying call of the colonials "no taxation without representation" and the resultant War of Independence. I guess they might not have forecast the results of their actions.

However, I'm beginning to suspect that there are political machinations afoot in both the IPSE and Alcock cases.

[SussexSeagull]

or in a union willing to take it on.
Anyone here in a union?
.
.
.
.
.
.
thought not.

I am! Community are moving into self employed people.

Anyone forced to go through an Umbrella would be covered by them.

[Lance]

There is absolutely no way that I would take on an ET - too expensive and too much of a gamble.

And I very much doubt that anyone else would either unless they are rich, proud AND stupid.

or in a union willing to take it on.
Anyone here in a union?
.
.
.
.
.
.
thought not.

[Lance]

Yes, but, realistically, there *must* be a budget, one way or the other, so they can continue to raise revenue and spend. It's just a question of precisely when and who will be delivering it. But, let's face it, among the range of options, a Tory budget may be bad, but it could be worse...

if there's no budget taxation doesn't just cease. It will continue. And spending will just continue.
IR35 legislation could potentially be a bill on its own, as long as it wasn't brought in by the government.

[Lance]

Not being worked on.

Awaiting a Finance Bill, which is awaiting a budget, which might otherwise have been expected around November. Now? Who knows.

I predict that as even BoJo cannot get a majority for a vote of no confidence in himself, the budget will be presented, but not get a finance bill passed.
And BoJo will just limply hang around till his popularity is so low that either the 1922 committe bin him or he resigns, and then we'll get a GE after they've chosen a new great leader.

If Labour have any sense (not enough do) they'll steal a march by binng JC at conference to be ahead of the game when that happens. Unfortunatley the Kult is strong.

Suffice to say, unless BoJo can get a GE in the next 4/5/6 weeks, there isn't going to be a finance bill 2019.