Historical EBT Loans Current View on Legal Position

[ukcommando]

So is the general feeling/ advice from professionals is to settle pre-2010 open years?

I've summarised my own thoughts in a separate update to my original post, but I think you're right, and there are no viable options left, save paying for expensive professional advice that will likely make little difference. I am a bit hacked off at recently receiving a determination after an eight year silence, because there was an open query and, apparently, HMRC have absolutely no time limits on resolving open queries, which seems crazy. But it looks like I have to grin and bear it...

[ukcommando]

I thought I might as well crystallise my own thoughts, as there has not been much input to my original query. This is just my personal view of the current status on EBT loans and ongoing determinations being issued by HMRC, and not in any way a formal legal opinion.

I am inclined to not see any value in spending further money on professional advice unless there’s an argument to be had, especially as the evidence aspect (we had the loans) is pretty clear cut. I suspect the value of expensive advice on this particular subject is likely limited to engaging with HMRC on behalf of those in distress to help mitigate the impact, or to engage in the ongoing campaigning for relief. Happy to be proven wrong.

I've jotted down four headings that I think are a good way to consider the issue. I welcome any comments/input that help form a more complete picture.

1. Evidence

Straight forward. EBT loans were recorded on the recipients Tax Returns, so there’s no question that they are on record (unless folk submitted inaccurate returns which is a different matter)

1. Legal Status

The Rangers case and the subsequent Hoey case appear to establish that the loans are regarded as income and are taxable if HMRC opened an enquiry or issued a determination within the permitted time limits. Are there any viable challenges to this (I don't know of any)?

1. Applicability

This is the question as to whether any individual cases/schemes have circumstances/factors, or legal arguments, that place them outside the normal legal status mentioned above. This was the main reason for my original query. I think it unlikely, but thought it worth asking for input from others.

1. Relief/Mitigation

This relates to ongoing campaigning for the authorities to consider the extreme stress placed on former scheme members. Examples have been quoted of folk on more modest incomes whose lives are destroyed by HMRC demands, though I suspect there’s a much higher proportion of these in the body of people impacted by the Loan Charge which is hitting the post 2010 period when non-EBT loan schemes were being promoted to a wide range of employers. There are, of course, many in the contractor world hit by multiple determinations who have faced losing all their assets and been pushed to the brink.

My view is that I fully understand that those who have nothing more to lose, may as well fight to the end with whatever support they have get from campaign groups. But it seems that HMRC are now pressing to close off and finalise all the open EBT queries. I doubt that any relief provided by campaigning will come in time, and even if it ever does, I suspect it will be likely be of a form that delays or spreads out payment obligations over the long term so that the Government can claim no one is losing their home. HMRC has already forced lots of settlements from folk who would likely feel aggrieved if others are subsequently let off the hook altogether.

[ukcommando]

I used to upload regularly when there was greater involvement by people affected by this who would give me the information. We no longer have many eyes in this area as most have settled and quietly got on with their lives, and so I don't get the updates that I used to.

Completely understand, it's undoubtedly a lot of effort keeping an eye on these forums. I had hoped for wider input from others impacted like myself, but if folk aren't searching much for this subject now, that's understandable.

[Nava39]

There are still some groups fighting, and cases ongoing, but they're almost certainly flogging a dead horse.

I wouldn't waste your time/energy/money on any of these hopeless causes.

So is the general feeling/ advice from professionals is to settle pre-2010 open years?

[woody1]

I was curious whether there were any remaining arguments to be had as to whether any cases or EBT schemes had an aspect that put them outside that legal status. ( I don't think there are, but no harm in asking ). There's no sense in throwing good money after bad by engaging with expensive specialists, when no valid arguments are available anyway.

There are still some groups fighting, and cases ongoing, but they're almost certainly flogging a dead horse.

I wouldn't waste your time/energy/money on any of these hopeless causes.

[cojak]

I'm quite surprised that there's been zero response to my query despite lots of views. Surely amongst the vast collective knowledge here, there's some knowledge of the current state of play on various schemes, particularly those that were around some time back and which have been through the grinder legally? Must admit I'm surprised that some form of KB isn't in the sticky posts to help with basic queries. I really would appreciate any informative response to my query.

I used to upload regularly when there was greater involvement by people affected by this who would give me the information. We no longer have many eyes in this area as most have settled and quietly got on with their lives, and so I don't get the updates that I used to.

[ukcommando]

You may not have noticed this but there are not that many posters regularly posting on this forum and you are after very specialist advice....

I don't think I am after very specialist advice though, I was just enquiring after the current status (in the opinion of forum members). I'm not asking for anyone to give legally binding opinions, but there are (apparently) tens of thousands of open enquiries which were on appeal but which are likely currently being issued determinations in HMRC's favour. It appears to me that the current legal status is that EBT loans have been determined to be taxable, where HMRC opened an enquiry within the permitted timeframe. I was curious whether there were any remaining arguments to be had as to whether any cases or EBT schemes had an aspect that put them outside that legal status. ( I don't think there are, but no harm in asking ). There's no sense in throwing good money after bad by engaging with expensive specialists, when no valid arguments are available anyway.

[woody1]

To date, every single loan legal challenge has failed.

Over the past 20-odd years, numerous schemes have gone to court. I haven't heard of a single one that's ever been successful.

If you're pinning your hopes on the courts, you might be better off buying lottery tickets instead.

[dammit chloe]

I'm quite surprised that there's been zero response to my query despite lots of views. Surely amongst the vast collective knowledge here, there's some knowledge of the current state of play on various schemes, particularly those that were around some time back and which have been through the grinder legally? Must admit I'm surprised that some form of KB isn't in the sticky posts to help with basic queries. I really would appreciate any informative response to my query.

I believe the only case running is, IIRC, The Higgs Case with Leith Gordon KC. It's best hope, IMV, is that recent media coverage will have been noticed by whoever is hearing it. Truth, I may be out of date, it may already have happened. Details are scarce.

Twitter :- https://twitter.com/ArmadilloSupprt/...12258171023633

There have been people vocal on here some time ago about bringing cases but they are oh so quiet now.

I wouldn't hold out any hope. Probably best chance is change of Govt, Labour has promised a review but recent days have seen them take an almost opposite stance. When they get power they will be bound by all the same forces and will be just as supine.

[eek]

I'm quite surprised that there's been zero response to my query despite lots of views. Surely amongst the vast collective knowledge here, there's some knowledge of the current state of play on various schemes, particularly those that were around some time back and which have been through the grinder legally? Must admit I'm surprised that some form of KB isn't in the sticky posts to help with basic queries. I really would appreciate any informative response to my query.

You may not have noticed this but there are not that many posters regularly posting on this forum and you are after very specialist advice....

[ukcommando]

Apologies if this has been addressed in previous queries, but I thought it worth asking outright. For EBT loans issued up to 2010, such as by Edge Consulting, and where there is an open query/appeal, what is the current status? Have the Rangers and Hoey cases now determined once and for all that HMRC are entitled to demand tax on the loan? Are there any viable options left for challenges? I appreciate that those in the worst positions, liability wise, might feel that it's worth trying to fight to the bitter end, but what's the general consensus legally? In my case, I have an extremely painful demand for £30k+, and trying to decide whether it's best to put it to bed by settling.

I'm quite surprised that there's been zero response to my query despite lots of views. Surely amongst the vast collective knowledge here, there's some knowledge of the current state of play on various schemes, particularly those that were around some time back and which have been through the grinder legally? Must admit I'm surprised that some form of KB isn't in the sticky posts to help with basic queries. I really would appreciate any informative response to my query.

[ukcommando]

Apologies if this has been addressed in previous queries, but I thought it worth asking outright. For EBT loans issued up to 2010, such as by Edge Consulting, and where there is an open query/appeal, what is the current status? Have the Rangers and Hoey cases now determined once and for all that HMRC are entitled to demand tax on the loan? Are there any viable options left for challenges? I appreciate that those in the worst positions, liability wise, might feel that it's worth trying to fight to the bitter end, but what's the general consensus legally? In my case, I have an extremely painful demand for £30k+, and trying to decide whether it's best to put it to bed by settling.