Reply to: EU democracy

[darmstadt]

In action:

The neo-Nazi National Democratic Party of Germany (NPD), won 300,000 votes, one percent of the total, and so wins its first seat in the 751-member European parliament.

The far-right party profited from a reform of Germany's electoral system, which removed a three percent threshold to gain seats.

And the removal of the three-percent hurdle also meant that the Animal Protection Party and a spoof party called Die Partei are set to win a seat each.

Die Partei’s leader Martin Sonneborn said: "I will spend the next four weeks in intensive preparation for my resignation."

The former editor of satirical magazine Titanic said his party follow a rotation principle. "We will try to resign once a month, so that we can smuggle 60 party members through the EU Parliament," he said. "So we'll be milking the EU like a small, southern European country."

[BlasterBates]

But the Commission aren't judges, they're policy setters and an unelected executive. It's the Commission that holds and wields the actual power in the EU.

European democracy is no more valid than the UK one, it's all about corruption, graft and a total lack of accountability, you would have to be pretty naive to believe democracy actually exists to any meaningful extent.

Actually that isn't true. It's the council of ministers that wield the power not the commission. The commissioners can draw up proposals and do at the request of individual governments. Perhaps you remember the that there was going to be a rule about Olive Oil containers, and this was supposedly dreamt up by a commissioner, but actually it was a request by the Italian govenment on behalf of the Italian Olive Oil industry, so one of the commissioners drew up a proposal as requested and the council of ministers threw it in the bin because no-one apart from the Italians thought it was a good idea.

Basically the commissioners are appointed by the heads of state but the European Parliament can accept or reject.

If he wants to Cameron can block an appointment. They have to find commissioners they can all agree on.

The council of ministers rule the roost as it were, the commission are the paper pushers, sure one or two might try to push an idea but if a head of state throws in his veto it's no deal.

[xoggoth]

The problem is that democracy doesn't scale well, in terms of pleasing the individual. In a society of 50 million people the chances of getting exactly what you want are pretty slim. In a society of 500 million they are all but non-existent

Excellent point. We would do far better and people would be more content if we devolve powers as much as possible right down to the parish level when suitable to do so. Unfortunately, many insist on centralising every aspect of decision making and unifying every law when it is not necessary. Some things such as product standards and worker health and safety need to be covered by EU wide laws but others, like speed limits, rent controls, planning consent etc probably do not.

[darmstadt]

But the Commission aren't judges, they're policy setters and an unelected executive. It's the Commission that holds and wields the actual power in the EU.

European democracy is no more valid than the UK one, it's all about corruption, graft and a total lack of accountability, you would have to be pretty naive to believe democracy actually exists to any meaningful extent.

In a way they are much like a Cabinet minister in the government who are primarily elected representatives in Parliament but could also be a member of the House of Lords who are not elected. An EU commissioner is first nominated by the member state and once his nomination has been accepted by the President they still have to be questioned by the European Parliament (who are elected) and they can refuse the appointment. They can also force the entire Commission to resign through a vote of no confidence which nearly happened back in '99, instead the Commission resigned en-masse. So although they maybe unelected they still owe their positions to those who were elected and are accountable to them.

[doodab]

But the Commission aren't judges, they're policy setters and an unelected executive. It's the Commission that holds and wields the actual power in the EU.

And via case law and setting of precedent our judges make a lot of law. It's the judges that ultimately hold the power to decide if you have broken the law or not.

you would have to be pretty naive to believe democracy actually exists to any meaningful extent.

I disagree. It exists. It's just that in practice it's a compromise that doesn't live up to people's idealised notion of it.

Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

The problem is that democracy doesn't scale well, in terms of pleasing the individual. In a society of 50 million people the chances of getting exactly what you want are pretty slim. In a society of 500 million they are all but non-existent.

[TykeMerc]

We vote for the people who appoint the commissioners. In that respect it's more democratic than the British justice system where judges are appointed by an unelected committee.

But the Commission aren't judges, they're policy setters and an unelected executive. It's the Commission that holds and wields the actual power in the EU.

European democracy is no more valid than the UK one, it's all about corruption, graft and a total lack of accountability, you would have to be pretty naive to believe democracy actually exists to any meaningful extent.

[doodab]

We shall see what difference it makes. Without elections for the EU commission members, not a lot probably.

We vote for the people who appoint the commissioners. In that respect it's more democratic than the British justice system where judges are appointed by an unelected committee.

[xoggoth]

We shall see what difference it makes. Without elections for the EU commission members, not a lot probably.

[doodab]

That link is not clear how much of the 19.9% Other is made up of far right groups which are presumably anti-EU. France's FN alone have 25 seats.

I think the media are overstating the rise of the far right a little bit as it makes for for good headlines. Obviously the result in France is significant, but although I can't find a country by country analysis looking at Germany, Italy & Greece I'd say that non-mainstream left and centrist parties (often eurosceptic) made significant gains as well.

[doodab]

so the rise of UKIP, National Front and NPD isn't a shock?

It was fairly widely predicted. The point is the parliament isn't actually full of eurosceptics or right wingers. The eurosceptics have gained a lot of seats, but they are actually quite a diverse lot with the bulk of the gains coming from the UK (UKIP) & France (NF) with both right, left and centrist parties in other countries making up the rest. There are actually quite a few non-right-wing eurosceptic parties, outside of France they are probably more significant than the right wing ones e.g. the five star party in Italy, the ones from Greece who are pissed off about the EU bailouts, or the ANO in Czech Republic. The NPD got something like 1% of the vote which might give them a single seat but hardly makes them significant. I'd pay more attention to the AFD, who are anti-euro but not anti-EU.

I do think it's a bit of a surprise to some people in the UK but that's more to do with ignorance I think. This sort of political plurality has been the norm in Europe for a while. It's also part of a longer term trend in the UK. If you look at say general election results since the 50s there is a steady decline in the number of votes going to the two main parties. Couple that with reduction in turnout and the proportion of people voting Tory or Labour in a general election has roughly halved while the lib dems and latterly UKIP have become significant. I personally don't think UKIP will last much more than 5 years in their current form but there is certainly room for an alternative party in national politics.

[barrydidit]

Herman van Rompuy, Jose Manuel Barroso, Jacques Delors, Cathy Ashton, Peter Mandelson, Ken Clarke, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg, your boys took one hell of a beating…

That doesn't look right somehow. UKIP got 23 seats, the Tories and Labour 18 each. What's it supposed to show?

[xoggoth]

Nick Clegg is getting a kicking, unjustifiably in my view.

Talk of Vince Cable taking over? They cannot be serious! I think it was Vince Cable who did the real damage to the Lib Dems because his speeches always show such utter contempt for anyone who does not share his views of free movement or who expresses even legitimate concerns about immigration levels.

[vetran]

we have also decided that our pension crisis will be solved by working longer, so why do we need more workers when most non skilled workers will be struggling to find a job into their late 60s?

[Flashman]

Herman van Rompuy, Jose Manuel Barroso, Jacques Delors, Cathy Ashton, Peter Mandelson, Ken Clarke, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg, your boys took one hell of a beating…

[xoggoth]

I would also argue that low skilled labour is taking us backwards. We need to change with the times and embrace technology that replaces the simple manual skills.

Our high streets are emptying because wide car ownership, supermarkets and shopping malls and online shopping make the little high street shop uneconomic. It is not a positive to have these space filled with shops selling Polish food that is of no interest to the rest of us. We need to go with the times and either use these spaces for housing or as pick up points for online shops as Argos does. Similarly the EU car washers hanging around in supermarket car parks are just taking business from the automated car wash at your local garage. In factories we would do better to increase automation with machines that can be turned off at the end of the shift, not low paid people whose net contribution to the state is often negative.

We will only compete with the developing world if we stop the impossible task of trying to produce low price goods and services and concentrate on innovation and technology that they are not yet capable of.