Reply to: Taxation is theft

[evilagent]

You lot do realise that this thread could go on ad infinitum, don't you?

Like the ideal contract...

Keep calm and keep posting (invoices)

[doodab]

You lot do realise that this thread could go on ad infinitum, don't you?

Isn't that true of any thread? Look at TPD. This one would be known as TIT

[cojak]

You lot do realise that this thread could go on ad infinitum, don't you?

[evilagent]

And another thing:

re: "force" or "voluntary";

I don't have the knowledge to know if stem-cell research will result in any benefit in the future.
Nor do I know if fusion will work.

How can you make a "voluntary" decision about blue-sky thinking?
It's a social risk we are taking, and hopefully will benefit from.
How could you possibly finance these through anything other than govt projects?
(given the short-termism of most corps)

[speling bee]

I thought they were the same person.

WGAS

[doodab]

SO and ZL are the new CUK 6th form debating society.

I thought they were the same person.

[evilagent]

Cool, so you agree with me then - It's your opinion that I'm interested in. Not what some piece of paper called "the law of some such land" says.
Killing outside the remit of self-defence is murder, forcing sex without consent is rape, and taking from someone by force is theft.

Taxation is taking money from me by force, regardless of what is 'offered' in return. Therefore taxation, as opposed to voluntary trade, is theft.

We got there in the end! It's funny how one has to get some people to answer enough questions until they come around to the inescapable truth - even though they persist in not admitting it to themselves directly.

Tax is the price of being part of a coherent society.

Try policing where you had to pay for an investigaton.
Try health where you are unconscious after an accident, and they need your "consent" before before being taken to hospital for treatment.

Try a strategic longterm investment where you don't see the benefits for decades, or such things like airlines (without military investment, there wouldn't be the knowledge base), or satellites (you would have no mobile phones without the bottomless pit of money needed for military rocketry knowledge)

It's a tough one, and the issues are more about a reasonable taxation.
And of course the slice the government takes.
And the bottom section of society that seeks to milk systems.
And the top section of society that seeks to milk systems through govenment contracts (knowing the tax-payer is underwriting everything, and essentially not operating a true business affected by supply and demand. weapons amnufacturers particularly, and pharmaceutical corps overcharging for meds)

It's a mess. But better than any other mess we can find anywhere else on the planet.

[NotAllThere]

Cool, so you agree with me then - It's your opinion that I'm interested in....

You really need to read properly what I've said. I do NOT agree with you.

I think there are moral absolutes, and it is possible for something to be legal and immoral (and illegal and moral). I do not think that taxation is theft. Taking from someone by force is not theft when it is mandated by the law. Similarly, state executions, since they are legal, are not murder.

[speling bee]

Don't start him off on this, it's his favourite topic. Do a forum search of his posts.

Don't worry, it's just Randian objectivist nonsense.

SO and ZL are the new CUK 6th form debating society. The thread on God was an interesting insight into this.

[d000hg]

Is deducting tax from employees at source taking by force?
Is forcibly enforcing a debt theft?

Don't start him off on this, it's his favourite topic. Do a forum search of his posts.

[speling bee]

Taxation is taking money from me by force, regardless of what is 'offered' in return. Therefore taxation, as opposed to voluntary trade, is theft.

Is deducting tax from employees at source taking by force?
Is forcibly enforcing a debt theft?

[d000hg]

If that is the case, then all that happens is that the question regresses a level - if the definition of theft or murder depends on the law, then where does the law come from? My law considerers theft to be theft under all circumstances, i.e. taking what isn't yours by force is theft.

So when you say that taxation is legal... says who? It's illegal. it always has been and always will be.

You don't have any laws, just opinions.

Also, are you suggesting moral absolutism i.e. some fundamental external definition of right or wrong? I didn't have you down as the religious type.

[SpontaneousOrder]

It is not the definition I hold but...

...By the definition I presented, which I believe (as noted) is that one that in practice is how the world works, then yes, of course.

Cool, so you agree with me then - It's your opinion that I'm interested in. Not what some piece of paper called "the law of some such land" says.
Killing outside the remit of self-defence is murder, forcing sex without consent is rape, and taking from someone by force is theft.

Taxation is taking money from me by force, regardless of what is 'offered' in return. Therefore taxation, as opposed to voluntary trade, is theft.

We got there in the end! It's funny how one has to get some people to answer enough questions until they come around to the inescapable truth - even though they persist in not admitting it to themselves directly.

[NotAllThere]

...A deeper meaning to me is that although tax is legal, and you should pay it, there is in turn no ethics attached to it; hence I don't see any issue with legal (stress the legal) tax avoidance...

Indeed. A system of government could be possible with no taxation, yet still be able to maintain adequate service provision for people regardless of their income.

[NotAllThere]

Indeed. What a very practical chap you are! Most rare among CUKers. Although, if you exclude any notion of what is moral or right or even best for society as more sensible people would define it, then anything that works or that one can get away with, including tax evasion, is equally valid.

With moral relativism how could it be otherwise?