Reply to: Missed this one - on benefits & proud

[vetran]

voters or debt slaves?

both

[vetran]

I'm not sure many engrained benefits-as-a-lifestyle folk would want to work illegally for extra cash, and they have no skills anyway.

enough that they made it a 10 year sentence.
BBC News - Benefit fraud could lead to 10-year jail terms, says DPP

Last year, the CPS saw more than 8,600 prosecutions in benefit and tax credit cases, and 4,000 in the first five months of 2013, Mr Starmer said. The current conviction rate is 89.7%, he added.

plenty of them do

BBC NEWS | England | Manchester | Reality TV star cheated benefits

Lizzy Bardsley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

mates of mine were doing general building work, catering and private tutoring. Remember £50 cash in hand for a mornings work is equal to £75/100 after tax. A night as a barmaid etc.

There are plenty of other ways you can abuse it. As last night, she has the house, boyfriend and father of the Kids 'lives' in another council flat and probably sublets.

[BrilloPad]

because sooner or later we run out of voters

voters or debt slaves?

[d000hg]

seen all 5 and there is little in the system to stop the progression from 1->5.

I'm not sure many engrained benefits-as-a-lifestyle folk would want to work illegally for extra cash, and they have no skills anyway.

Off the point - you said that it was perfectly reasonable that some people should be allowed to sit on their backsides all day and be paid to do so if that was their desire - do you not think that having this as an option, as a career path if you will, is what is contributing to many of the problems that we have in society?

No.

[amcdonald]

Why should state pay for any children?

Good point, it depends on whether you think we a level of moral obligation or not

[vetran]

Why should state pay for any children?

because sooner or later we run out of voters

[BrilloPad]

Easy solution, the state pays for the first two children, if they can't afford the rest they get taken away for adoption and their benefits get stopped

Why should state pay for any children?

[BoredBloke]

So what, exactly? There are 12/13 people to support, so the story is 12 people earn benefits equivalent to one person on a £60k job.

No the story is 1 benefits scrounger has plopped out 11 future benefits scroungers.

[vetran]

It depends how you're defining "willing to rely on benefits". I don't think you can treat the same way people who are not pressured to work and take the easy route, and those who deliberately set out to play the system.

I'm not sure we can really criticise either too much because finding a way to provide for oneself is all those who take benefits are doing. "pride" and "not accepting charity" seem to have no absolute moral value, we're just back with Cameron's "it's only right we all pay our fair share" kind of argument. If you find a way to provide for your family, good on you.

There is no such thing as society hey?

There are a number of levels:

1. Need to depend wholly on benefits for a short while due to hardship.
2. Cannot find a job that is as generous as benefits.
3. Fell into benefits through hardship and find them comfortable, wouldn't mind the 'right job'.
4. Decided that benefits are easier than working .
5. Are on benefits and working illegally.

Most people wouldn't begrudge 1 benefits. 2&3 need assistance. 4&5 need active discouragement.

Last night were 4 & maybe 5 so deserve our disgust.

seen all 5 and there is little in the system to stop the progression from 1->5.

[Platypus]

Move along, nothing to see here.
Don't sweat it people, it's the price of doing business. These people are not living it up, they are dragging along the bottom and will continue to do so.
Let them have Sky and pies, then they will gnerally leave us alone to get on with our lives.
If you want to know what life is like if you don't pay any bennies - check out Brazil, SA etc. Walled communities and a real danger of being attacked every time you leave the compound, properly grim.
Earn enough to live somewhere nice and this programme is probably the closest you will get to these people apart from the local hospital and even that can be avoided with money.

Yep, fair points.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

And taxes are not your money, they are the government's. When you earn money from an employer, it stops being theirs and becomes yours. When you pay taxes on that, it becomes the property of the government. When the government pay benefits, it becomes the claimee's money. It's not your money anymore.

Off the point - you said that it was perfectly reasonable that some people should be allowed to sit on their backsides all day and be paid to do so if that was their desire - do you not think that having this as an option, as a career path if you will, is what is contributing to many of the problems that we have in society?

[vetran]

This might be more helpful:

Public Spending Chart for United Kingdom 1950-2012 - Central Government Local Authorities

It shows the split since 1993. Adjusted for inflation.

as you can see pensions are a big part of it and rising rapidly. We could get them to rely on private pensions but Gordon put paid to that.
but welfare has been fairly steady if you adjust for inflation suggesting a steady demand that doesn't clearly reflect job availability.

Now possibly there is a small minority of doley scroungers, but for the faith of tax payers they need to be encouraged into work with a path to get them off the dole.

Most tax payers would see Dole money as something they pay as part of their taxes it being £100 Billion and they are watching Eastern Europeans take jobs because the Brits don't want them because they are better off on the dole then its not surprising they are angry!

[lukemg]

Move along, nothing to see here.
Don't sweat it people, it's the price of doing business. These people are not living it up, they are dragging along the bottom and will continue to do so.
Let them have Sky and pies, then they will gnerally leave us alone to get on with our lives.
If you want to know what life is like if you don't pay any bennies - check out Brazil, SA etc. Walled communities and a real danger of being attacked every time you leave the compound, properly grim.
Earn enough to live somewhere nice and this programme is probably the closest you will get to these people apart from the local hospital and even that can be avoided with money.

[b0redom]

No, it's a fact.

We give everyone the option of free health and dental and education too, is that a bad idea?

No I don't believe it is. This idea behind public health and education is that people who are better off, help subsidise people who are worse off.

That's a world away from saying that a life spent living on benefits because you're better off or are given housing and an allowance for free
should be a lifestyle choice.

Benefits should be a safety net, not a career choice, and if less people were on benefits, there would be less need for working individuals to subsidise them.

[amcdonald]

And taxes are not your money, they are the government's. When you earn money from an employer, it stops being theirs and becomes yours. When you pay taxes on that, it becomes the property of the government. When the government pay benefits, it becomes the claimee's money. It's not your money anymore.

That is another of societies problems, taxes are not a magic money pot for governments to spend, that is exactly the same thinking as benefits scroungers

It's not their money, it's our money they're spending!, which is why they think we're a magic money tree that they can use to bribe us with our own money!