Reply to: Monday Links from the Science Park vol. CXC

[Mich the Tester]

...clubs who talent pick players at a young age have an obligation to ensure that a balanced environment is provided. That must include ongoing education & support.

Yep, and I think that English and Welsh clubs are doing a good job of that nowadays. Don't know about the rest of the world.

[Pondlife]

Mich, I wasn't disagreeing with you. My opinion is that although not every sports person has degree potential and as you say, some have other real life situations to consider, clubs who talent pick players at a young age have an obligation to ensure that a balanced environment is provided. That must include ongoing education & support.

[Mich the Tester]

I'm pretty sure that if Jamie Roberts can qualify as a doctor whilst still being competitive/devoted enough to play for the lions on two separate tours, then there are enough hours in the day for both sport and education. Ditto for Alun Wyn Jones (Law degree) and I'm sure countless others.

Yep, some people can, some take a bit longer over it all; it's not something where you can make a golden rule for everybody. Personally I took a bit longer over poly, but I wasn't just playing rugby; I worked two full nightshifts a week while at poly because although I didn't get a grant based on father's income, seeing as his business went bust in the middle of an academic year, that income wasn't there either. I also spent 6 months in Aus playing grade cricket in Perth as I didn't actually know which sport I'd eventually choose. Came back from Aus sick to the back teeth of cricket, went back to playing rugby in the UK, was then hired out for half a season to a Dutch club (still happens a lot as Dutch clubs try to avoid relegation by bringing in foreign players for half a season), met Lady Tester and then went back to studying on the OU at the same time as flying back and forth to London on Mondays, sometimes Wednesdays and every Saturday to train and play in England. So it took me a total of 6 years to get my bachelors instead of 3, having started at 20. I got the qualifications in the end, but via a roundabout route; aside from having the discipline to put in the effort there's a thing called 'life' that can't always be planned!

I have to say I admire Jamie Roberts for what he's done though; that takes a lot of hard work, but don't underestimate how much it helped him to be part of the Wales youth set-up which does a good job of helping players manage studying and playing. Alun Wyn Jones did indeed get a law degree, but he did it part time at Swansea, which is a university with very good support for sportspeople; all credit to him, but don't start thinking everyone can do a full time degree and play top level rugby at the same time. A few can, but not many. Even back in the days of shamateurism that was very tough; there were quite a few good players who had, erm, let's call them very part time 'full time jobs' and others who took a couple of years longer to study.

[Ticktock]

Indeed, it's an excellent system for young footballers in Germany. It's something that isn't available for all sports, and certainly wasn't available in the UK when I was trying to get into professional sport. It is now though; the rugby academies are moving in the same direction and doing a good job for their players; Wasps claim their academy gets 90% of its players into full time contracts at 18, which is impressive, but I'm not sure whether they achieve that chiefly by being extremely selective at the start or by running an excellent program. I think this kind of thing is a good development.

You could also look at professional sports in the US. Most professional players are scouted from University teams, and those University teams are treated nearly as seriously as professional teams. Despite the flaws (athletes potentially being treated more leniently academically), this at least pushes sportsmen to get an education before they know whether they can be a professional.

In Europe, with football for example, it seems that the push is to grab kids as young as possible. In the US the professional teams are recruiting at around age 21, and when you look at the physicality of American football vs. "soccer" football that doesn't seem to be an issue. In essence the teams are letting the education system deal with youth training, and then picking from the best of these developed sportspeople.

[Pondlife]

Indeed, it's an excellent system for young footballers in Germany. It's something that isn't available for all sports, and certainly wasn't available in the UK when I was trying to get into professional sport. It is now though; the rugby academies are moving in the same direction and doing a good job for their players; Wasps claim their academy gets 90% of its players into full time contracts at 18, which is impressive, but I'm not sure whether they achieve that chiefly by being extremely selective at the start or by running an excellent program. I think this kind of thing is a good development.

I'm pretty sure that if Jamie Roberts can qualify as a doctor whilst still being competitive/devoted enough to play for the lions on two separate tours, then there are enough hours in the day for both sport and education. Ditto for Alun Wyn Jones (Law degree) and I'm sure countless others.

[Mich the Tester]

Quite an interesting article about how one German football club looks after its young players here: How Germany went from bust to boom on the talent production line | Football | The Guardian

Indeed, it's an excellent system for young footballers in Germany. It's something that isn't available for all sports, and certainly wasn't available in the UK when I was trying to get into professional sport. It is now though; the rugby academies are moving in the same direction and doing a good job for their players; Wasps claim their academy gets 90% of its players into full time contracts at 18, which is impressive, but I'm not sure whether they achieve that chiefly by being extremely selective at the start or by running an excellent program. I think this kind of thing is a good development.

[vetran]

Quite an interesting article about how one German football club looks after its young players here: How Germany went from bust to boom on the talent production line | Football | The Guardian

Eiberg, Eiberg cummon you bergers!


common sense and compassion that shows why Germany does so well.

[darmstadt]

Quite an interesting article about how one German football club looks after its young players here: How Germany went from bust to boom on the talent production line | Football | The Guardian

eiburg place great emphasis on academic work, so much so that they like a selection of their staff to come from a teaching background, so that they can provide educational help whenever it is needed, including on the way to matches. It is not uncommon for players to do homework on the coach. Streich says that clubs have a moral obligation to think about what happens to those who fail to make the grade.

"When I went to Aston Villa eight years ago I told them our players, under-17, 18 and 19, go to school for 34 hours a week," he says. "They said: 'No, you're a liar, it's not possible, our players go for nine hours.' I said: 'No, I'm not lying.' They said: 'It's not possible, you can't train and do 34 hours of education.' I said: 'Sure. And what do you do with the players who have for three years, from the age of 16 to 19, only had nine hours a week of school?

"They said: 'They have to try to be a professional or not. They have to decide.' I said: 'No, we can't do that in Freiburg. It's wrong. Most players in our academy can't be professionals, they will have to look for a job. The school is the most important thing, then comes football.' We give players the best chance to be a footballer but we give them two educations here. If 80% can't go on to play in the professional team, we have to look out for them. The players that play here, the majority of them go on to higher education. And we need intelligent players on the pitch anyway."

[d000hg]

That's an interesting viewpoint, I guess it goes two ways - you take that drive and determination elsewhere or you get bitter about losing your one big shot.

[Mich the Tester]

Unfortunately, having the talent doesn't mean you'll make it. The majority of young people ticking all the boxes towards a career as a professional footballer never get signed... there are more amazing 17 year old footballers than there are spots for them... presumably the same is likely in dancing.

Yep, one thing though; from my experience and looking at others who tried but didn't 'make it big', most people who give up a lot to try and be the best at something in their youth actually turn out to do quite well in life, even if they leave the 'qualifications' until later. There's a simple reason; they generally aren't quitters. In sport, or dance in the example, they've had to deal with f**king up at the big moment and then picking themselves up again, they've learnt to push themselves, they've learnt to take lessons from defeat, and these things serve them well in life. Of course, there are exceptions, but I think most people who strive to reach the top in one field of endeavour will find a way to at least do OK in something else.

[Spacecadet]

• From the Omni Archive: Dune - "[John] Schoenherr’s illustrations are among the most celebrated of science fiction artworks; he showed, like Richard M. Powers, that science fiction art could be mature and painterly, worlds away from the lurid pulp exaggerations the genre had cultivated since its inception. The first artist to tackle the desert planet Arrakis, his Dune illustrations in particular have become archetypes by which Frank Herbert’s universe is visualized." Lots more good stuff will surely be emerging from the vaults of Omni through the Omni Reboot project

I noticed this massive rip off when browsing amazon for the book

[Spacecadet]

[d000hg]

As others have observed, if you have the talent to be a top flight artist(e) of any sort or a sportsman that should be apparent well before you leave school or have to decide about higher education.

Unfortunately, having the talent doesn't mean you'll make it. The majority of young people ticking all the boxes towards a career as a professional footballer never get signed... there are more amazing 17 year old footballers than there are spots for them... presumably the same is likely in dancing.

[vetran]

I'll defer to Mitch's expertise, It does make me nervous though, maybe I'm from less adventurous stock.

[darmstadt]

You'll never know. Unless you have a crack

I know what its like, I had a crack:



Butt no longer: