Reply to: Why the poor don't move

[vetran]

My personal experience talking to those who have turned down jobs is that the benefits are generous enough to not have to work. Until this changes then Eastern Europeans will undercut the unemployed.

I'm a great fan of training,benefit reduction and then workfare for the unemployed.

3 examples, I know plenty more.

1. widower with 3 kids, he could work (he was successfully self employed for years) but his benefits are sufficient that he has no need. Will probably go back to work when youngest goes to school full time.

2. Lorry driver with stay at home mum and 3 kids. turned down jobs because he would be > £50 a week worse off.

3. Baby farm who chose to breed with boyfriend (with his own council flat) rather than work, will be 'encouraged into work' this year.

number 1 I sympathise with and so long as he doesn't work illegally is fine by me, number two got a job that paid enough and has had another 3 jobs since then, number 3 frankly we need to get back to work.

there is work out there otherwise all my waitresses wouldn't speak polish.

the key issue is generous benefits and the ability to be idle, remove that and many more would find work.

Many of the dead industrial cities have fixed themselves e.g. Manchester & Glasgow now have much higher employment levels once businesses invested, but if they have no decent workforce then no one will invest.

I remember going to the Fujitsu factory in Newton Aycliff it was a one horse town but thanks to subsidies it had thousands of employees. I would prefer to subsidise that than a coffee shop.

Make them want to work and Take work to them as well.

[Brussels Slumdog]

The science of mobility

Someone must have done a thesis on why the poor don't move to find work

1 The richer or wealthier you are the futher you can move
At £450-£500 per day I can accept work from Island in the West to Istanbul in East and from Moscow in the North to Cairo in the South and be home for the weekend
An Unemployed working class local with 2 children a wife and an ex wife most likely has a job search area of about 5 miles
A single middle class east European funded by his parents or savings can move to within 5 miles of the UK Unemployed working class local to find a job to improve his english.

2 The higher your skills the more likely you will gain from moving
With the right skills (and the right age) you can move to Australia,NZ or Canada
With 0 skill you will be competing with EU workers with Skills and UK workers also moving with skills

[Spacecadet]

But aren't working for huge numbers of people, and indeed entire chunks of the country; you can blame the gummint, the people themselves or the EU or anyone else, but this isn't working and needs improvement because if we think we've seen mass unemployment due to the likes of automated manufacturing and containerised ports, we 'ain't seen nothing yet'.

Unemployment was over 20% in the 1920's and until it reaches crisis level there won't be any real attempt to fix it. The UK won't be directly effected by automation, most of what can be automated has either been automated already or sent over seas.

When China starts massively automating jobs then there will be an issue as there will suddenly be a lot of Chinese workers re-skilling to IT.

[shaunbhoy]

Well, they clearly failed in their mission of keeping undesirables out

Exactly. Told you they were shoddy.
Now if they hadn't insisted upon that 90 minute lunch break!!!

[doodab]

Like Consular Services for example?

Well, they clearly failed in their mission of keeping undesirables out

[doodab]

And as a result of past destruction we now have more robust social policies, free healthcare, education and housing which should prevent most people falling into absolute poverty.

Yes, and the percentage of the population that has to pay for it all does nothing but whinge about it.

[Mich the Tester]

Like Consular Services for example?

Most of them have been outsourced.

[shaunbhoy]

That depends if you count dead wood that's technically "employed" but does nothing useful.

Like Consular Services for example?

[Mich the Tester]

And as a result of past destruction we now have more robust social policies, free healthcare, education and housing which should prevent most people falling into absolute poverty.

But aren't working for huge numbers of people, and indeed entire chunks of the country; you can blame the gummint, the people themselves or the EU or anyone else, but this isn't working and needs improvement because if we think we've seen mass unemployment due to the likes of automated manufacturing and containerised ports, we 'ain't seen nothing yet'.

[Spacecadet]

Yes, but should you tolerate the destruction as it happens? I think the last 100 years should have taught us what mass poverty can cause.

And as a result of past destruction we now have more robust social policies, free healthcare, education and housing which should prevent most people falling into absolute poverty.

[Mich the Tester]

Again, this is something which has happened several times before in history, give it another 30 years and it will happen again

Yes, but should you tolerate the destruction as it happens? I think the last 100 years should have taught us what mass poverty can cause.

[Mich the Tester]

That depends if you count dead wood that's technically "employed" but does nothing useful.

Dutch statistics; population 17,000,000, working population 7.4 million, of whom about 700,000 are unemployed, another 700,000 on long term sickness benefits, another few hundred thousand (difficult to get precise figures) freelancers with no work, plus about 250,000 people in direct employ of the government. The figures can't carry on adding up.

[Spacecadet]

Overall productivity goes up but utilization may well go down, with the end result being concentration of wealth in the hands of the few, mass unemployment, resentment of the unemployed and social unrest.

There is an article on the topic in this month's comm. ACM. Not read it yet.

Again, this is something which has happened several times before in history, give it another 30 years and it will happen again

[doodab]

, we don't have 95% unemployment

That depends if you count dead wood that's technically "employed" but does nothing useful.

[doodab]

A made a slight change for you

Over the past 200-300 years a lot of jobs have been automated out of existence. New jobs eventually fill their place and overall productivity goes up.

Overall productivity goes up but utilization may well go down, with the end result being concentration of wealth in the hands of the few, mass unemployment, resentment of the unemployed and social unrest.

There is an article on the topic in this month's comm. ACM. Not read it yet.