What is Happenning in Istanbul?

[Platypus]

Just Googled Aylin Aslim. Oho yes.

God no

[Mich the Tester]

That was in houses, shops and restaurants. It was very obvious in both the grand and Spice Bazaars.

As I just did a single workshop in a hotel I didn't see any offices this time around although I don't remember modern offices having many even when I was there last time around.

I suppose he's ancient history to many younger Turks

[eek]

Pulled down by Erdogan's chums? I bet if you go in people's houses or in offices and restaurants you still see Ataturk.

That was in houses, shops and restaurants. It was very obvious in both the grand and Spice Bazaars.

As I just did a single workshop in a hotel I didn't see any offices this time around although I don't remember modern offices having many even when I was there last time around.

[Mich the Tester]

Last week the portraits were far less common than they used to be both on the European and Asian sides. There were also more headscarfs but I think that is less because people feel they have to wear them (as many people seemed to argue) but more because its no longer socially unacceptable to wear them.

Pulled down by Erdogan's chums? I bet if you go in people's houses or in offices and restaurants you still see Ataturk.

[eek]

Yep, although they might see their economic future in the Middle East and Asia, urban Turks and the army are very protective of the secular state and Ataturk is still highly revered for his role in creating it; you see his portrait all over the place in Istanbul and it's a political statement that says 'religion belongs at home and in the mosque, not in civic life'.

Last week the portraits were far less common than they used to be both on the European and Asian sides. There were also more headscarfs but I think that is less because people feel they have to wear them (as many people seemed to argue) but more because its no longer socially unacceptable to wear them.

[xoggoth]

Good luck to the protesters. Riots may damage the economy unfortunately but then so would an Islamist government eventually. You can't kill personal freedoms without killing initiative.

PS I hitchhiked there in the late sixties, pretty poor then, market stalls were selling used tooth brushes. It was noticeable how small the people all were.

[Lockhouse]

Just Googled Aylin Aslim. Oho yes.

[Mich the Tester]

Having visited non-tourist Turkey several times, normally during Ramadam, I'm quite interested in seeing how this plays out.

Many of the Turks in the cities are far less devout than Muslims in this country and don't have a chip on their shoulder either. I've been to several religious festivals in Turkey during the fast period and I've found the juxtaposition between the secular and the religious very interesting. Sometimes I've thought they've got the balance just right, other times I've had the feeling I've been sitting on a powder keg.

Don't underestimate the Turkish Army in this (and in that I include the police and security forces generally). Make no mistake, they will take action if they feel a line is going to be crossed and I would not be surprised if the people in this instance would be behind them.

I was in Istanbul at new year a few years ago; in Ortakoy, in a big square between a mosque, a synagogue and a church there was a free rock concert by Aylin Aslim (sort of Anatolian/Goth rock singer and quite fit, and rich to boot; what more could a man want?), beer tents all around and lots of fun was had. Indeed, a juxtaposition, but it seems to be one with which urban Turks are comfortable. Agreed, a lot depends on the army and I suspect they won't be eager to step in on Erdogan's side.

[Lockhouse]

Having visited non-tourist Turkey several times, normally during Ramadam, I'm quite interested in seeing how this plays out.

Many of the Turks in the cities are far less devout than Muslims in this country and don't have a chip on their shoulder either. I've been to several religious festivals in Turkey during the fast period and I've found the juxtaposition between the secular and the religious very interesting. Sometimes I've thought they've got the balance just right, other times I've had the feeling I've been sitting on a powder keg.

Don't underestimate the Turkish Army in this (and in that I include the police and security forces generally). Make no mistake, they will take action if they feel a line is going to be crossed and I would not be surprised if the people in this instance would be behind them.

[Troll]

Yep, although they might see their economic future in the Middle East and Asia, urban Turks and the army are very protective of the secular state and Ataturk is still highly revered for his role in creating it; you see his portrait all over the place in Istanbul and it's a political statement that says 'religion belongs at home and in the mosque, not in civic life'.

Talked to a Turkish guy here who says there are not only secular Turks, but lots of muslims and even imams among the protestors who don't want the government interfering with their faith. He thinks Erdogan's going to have to give in as the army are strongly on the side of the secular state, at least the regiments stationed in and around the major cities are Kemalists and will hesitate to defend religious dictates by the government. He already had political troubles with the army in the last few years and imprisoned some senior officers to replace them wth his own chums, but that doesn't get te army on his side.

Basically, Erdogan's AK Party have won successive elections because they're credited with turning a fooked economy into Europe's fastest (or even only) growing economies and people are really noticing improvements in their wealth. But Taksim square is a symbol of secular freedoms, and he should leave well alone.

Fook I'm old enough to remember Turkey under the last military regime

[Mich the Tester]

There are of course multiple other issues but it really boils down to the fact that the average City dwelling Turk is seeing things move rapidly in a direction they don't like away from Europe towards the Middle East.

Yep, although they might see their economic future in the Middle East and Asia, urban Turks and the army are very protective of the secular state and Ataturk is still highly revered for his role in creating it; you see his portrait all over the place in Istanbul and it's a political statement that says 'religion belongs at home and in the mosque, not in civic life'.

Talked to a Turkish guy here who says there are not only secular Turks, but lots of muslims and even imams among the protestors who don't want the government interfering with their faith. He thinks Erdogan's going to have to give in as the army are strongly on the side of the secular state, at least the regiments stationed in and around the major cities are Kemalists and will hesitate to defend religious dictates by the government. He already had political troubles with the army in the last few years and imprisoned some senior officers to replace them wth his own chums, but that doesn't get te army on his side.

Basically, Erdogan's AK Party have won successive elections because they're credited with turning a fooked economy into Europe's fastest (or even only) growing economies and people are really noticing improvements in their wealth. But Taksim square is a symbol of secular freedoms, and he should leave well alone.

[eek]

Quite a lot here

That article misses nearly every trigger point from last week off the article.

The things missing from last week are:-

Ban on alcohol sales within 100m of schools and Mosques. This is supposedly on health grounds until the PM made a slip on Tuesday and said it was on religious grounds.

Istanbul's third Bosphorus Bridge was given the name of the Sultan Selim Bridge (its named after the 3rd Sultan also known as Selim the Grim). Someone described it as the equivalent of calling a park over a redundant mine shaft Maggie Thatcher Park.


There are of course multiple other issues but it really boils down to the fact that the average City dwelling Turk is seeing things move rapidly in a direction they don't like away from Europe towards the Middle East.

[Troll]

are we going to arm the rebels?

[Bacchus]

I went to BBC and nada

Quite a lot here

[yasockie]

I could swear I've seen this thread here already, but now I can't find.
I went to BBC and nada, so here you go again:
What is happening in istanbul?