Reply to: Why dont we have articles like this in the British press?

[eek]

snip

That's both a cause of India being a tulip country and why I see it as one. We do things better in the UK.

coolcat is a one topic poster. I really would just ignore him.

[vetran]

I think Coolcat is confusing ICT's with other forms of immigration.

lets stay on ICT's which is basically young middle class workers coming to the UK and undercutting local workers and speeding offshoring.

They may well convert to residents if they can and bring the family later but that is a different argument.

My local schools are now filled with Eastern European and second / third generation immigrant kids not many from ICTs I suspect. The hospitals again don't seem to have many young immigrant Indians in them unless they are staff.

Even I don't expect ICT's to be a massive demand on the NHS but it makes sense to get their employers to buy insurance & pay anyway. Just as my Employer would if I were abroad. Things like TB are very expensive to treat.

Dominic you would be surprised where the money comes from, remember most of the immigrants we see from the other side of the world are middle / upper class so save for it like a car. Also flights are cheap if you book from India (I work with quite a few British born Indians who go to the motherland regularly).

Also the Eastern Europe workers are becoming more popular, outsourcers will work their way round the world using the cheapest labour they can,It will chase round the globe over the years. India->China->Poland->Romania .... -> USA ->UK -> India.

lets be honest if we lived in a country where the top 10% take all the money and that doesn't have a welfare scheme wouldn't we want out to somewhere like the UK / USA?

[minestrone]

If you want articles like this, then you have to tell the media about them.

As it happens, the PCG has sent me details of something vaguely similar that I might write up, but let me share a bit of how this stuff works.

Firstly, this article is tulip, the clumsy political bias would shame both the Guardian and Daily Mail. Notice the loaded words "local", "multinational" and the overt racism where it is taken as a given that Indians can't do computers as well as we white people can.

The bimbo that wrote this doesn't seem to be curious how this situation can continue. If the IT at a company is really tulip, the decision makers in IT suffer, sure a quick bit of cost saving makes you look good, but if you don't repeatedly don't deliver, grief comes your way.

Since she's a witless arts graduate she takes at face value the idea that at 21, calling yourself a "software developer" is fraudulent. Really ?
It's the sort of arrogance I had at 21, indeed I first called myself a programmer in my teens and I bet many of you did the same thing.

Most of us can't easily visualise a million billion, but we can visualise blue which is the vaguely frequency of visible light. Because she's an arts grad, she sees any number above 12 as a sort of colour or other adjective.

So says there are 16,299 Indians in Canada, out of a population of 34.5 million. Even if her racist views are correct, that's hardly a human wave, if someone had told here there were 35 million Indians in Canada, I'd give >50:50 she'd have swallowed that.

So frankly, if I wrote this for The Register, not only would it not get published, it might make them ask me to write less. Be clear that The Reg, likes rants, it just expects a certain quality.

Meeting that standard is the next reason you don't see this much in Britain.

I'd get about £500 to write a piece like this, work out how much time that equates to. Then ask how I could write it anyway.

I'd need facts and it would be hard to get it through without some names, the PCG has given me one, but frankly it's not quite timely, things need to have happened reasonably recently to be "news".

Also there are the libel laws, if I say "some contractors are a bit unhappy at a large outsourcing firm", you won't find that piece interesting, but if I say "G4S has screwed up its recruitment big time", I need decent evidence.

At this point I must be even more arrogant than normal.
There's a tech forum called Spiceworks, some of you are on it, most are not, but I am and this makes their PR people really very happy, they go to some lengths to keep me sweet because that's a conduit for getting their message out.

When I pitched up on ContractorUK and asked if anyone had anything I ought to know, most of what I got was abuse.

I'm old enough and ugly enough that this didn't bother me at all, but it is a lost opportunity since aside from the PCG no one is doing PR for contractors or for IT Pros in general and that causes a bias in the reporting.

Bottom line, you want stories that reflect your position, you have to help us write them.

At the Reg, we have spiked stories because it would identify the source in a way that might hurt them, so contrary to what you might thing from reading, we actually take this stuff seriously.

That's not just me, a couple of mates of mine are freelancers on the Daily Mail and although they'd reject trash like this referenced article, they'd have no problem with the story itself, if it were near enough to some sort of truth.

Your move.

Where did this dullard come from?

[Dominic Connor]

I don't write for the Daily Mail...

Coolcat

I find it really unlikely that massive numbers of really sick dependents are decanted into planes to enter NHS hospitals. Who would pay for the flight et al ?

It is overwhelmingly the case that migrants of any form are fitter and more healthy on average than both the population they join and the one they leave, short version is that sick and broken people stay where they are put.

>To the dept of Education – how many children of ICT visa holders are currently >in schools getting free schooling?

You can't have it both ways here, either they are in Britain for too short a time to pay tax or they are getting their kids educated here.

If they are staying for an education then I don't see how they can't be paying tax, in fact since taxes pay for pensions, healthcare etc, these fit young people are paying taxes for things they are far less likely to consume than other taxpayers. Put another way, medium-stay migrants are ripped off by Britain.

> Especially around ICT hotspots like the M4 corridor, and BT Ipswich etc? How >many are crowding out the best schools while local parents children get >displaced into the less popular schools?

This is a self inflicted wound that Brits seem to want to blame everyone for but themselves. The reason so many fret about "choice" in schools is not that the average Brit can make any sort of informed choice, but because so many schools are obviously tulip. That is not the fault of Indians, the Daily Mail, The Guardian, Politicians, Unions or the Sith. Brits **** around with education and seem to care more about the colour of uniform and sports facilities than maths or anything actually useful.

>Or how about looking at the number of Indian nationals registered to vote in >some marginal constituencies?

I you live here, you should vote here, other countries don't do that, which is why so many of them are tulip.

>Compare and contrast to how hard it is for a Brit to work in India and to >register to vote, or get schooling or medical treatment for their family, if they >do.

That's both a cause of India being a tulip country and why I see it as one. We do things better in the UK.

[SueEllen]

While you are doing your freedom of info requests here are a few more to try:
To the NHS – how many inpatients in the last 12 months were in the country as family members accompanying an ICT visa holder? What is the average length of time between them arriving in the country and being admitted to hospital? Ie how many come over specifically because they are already seriously ill to get free treatment out of the NHS…
To the dept of Education – how many children of ICT visa holders are currently in schools getting free schooling? Especially around ICT hotspots like the M4 corridor, and BT Ipswich etc? How many are crowding out the best schools while local parents children get displaced into the less popular schools?
Or how about looking at the number of Indian nationals registered to vote in some marginal constituencies? Start with those only here on a work visa, or family member of same. You will see their votes more than swing some marginal constituencies. Compare and contrast to how hard it is for a Brit to work in India and to register to vote, or get schooling or medical treatment for their family, if they do.
And so on

Half your questions will not get an answer due to the way you have written them.

Previous questions on this site gives you some guidance on how to phrase your questions to get a proper answer.

[darmstadt]

A summer holiday for some members of CUK?

[CoolCat]

While you are doing your freedom of info requests here are a few more to try:
To the NHS – how many inpatients in the last 12 months were in the country as family members accompanying an ICT visa holder? What is the average length of time between them arriving in the country and being admitted to hospital? Ie how many come over specifically because they are already seriously ill to get free treatment out of the NHS…
To the dept of Education – how many children of ICT visa holders are currently in schools getting free schooling? Especially around ICT hotspots like the M4 corridor, and BT Ipswich etc? How many are crowding out the best schools while local parents children get displaced into the less popular schools?
Or how about looking at the number of Indian nationals registered to vote in some marginal constituencies? Start with those only here on a work visa, or family member of same. You will see their votes more than swing some marginal constituencies. Compare and contrast to how hard it is for a Brit to work in India and to register to vote, or get schooling or medical treatment for their family, if they do.
And so on

[Spacecadet]

Yes I know. It is the wide and numerous things they can count as "expenses" and therefore not pay tax and National Insurance which is outrageous.

are we still talking about Indians or have we moved on to dissing contractors?

[CoolCat]

Re "But you can claim expenses if you went to India"

Yes I know. It is the wide and numerous things they can count as "expenses" and therefore not pay tax and National Insurance which is outrageous.

Re "No, perhaps I should try some FOIAs"

There are at least 2000 on Cognizants UK payroll probably over 3000, and their offices only have room for max a few hundred staff, all the rest are on client sites breaking the spirit of their visas.

etc

[cojak]

We gave the world ITIL and PRINCE2, someone somewhere must count as a leader.

And then sold them (or at least ITIL) onto to Crapita...

[vetran]

>2 Indian nationals get to count lots as "expenses" which a Brit working far away from home within the UK cannot, so if I >live in London but work in Glasgow I am at a significant disadvantage to someone working in Glasgow from India - why?

But you can claim expenses if you went to India, I've worked abroad a reasonable amount and done so.
I'm not sure this counts as much of an advantage, living away from home is usually far more expensive, so although there is some advantage, I'm not sure it is much.

much of their wages are given as 'living allowances' the firm organises accommodation & food for them then charges them accordingly. They can cut wage costs by 50% when a western firm would pay that for their employees.

......


4 Any idea how many people are on the UK payroll of Cognizant, Infosys, Wipro, etc ? Any idea what percentage are ICT visa holder (or holders of indefinite leave to remain or British passports given simply for working here a while?) Any idea how many are subcontracted onto other organisations and not really working for their parent company (in the spirit Intra Company Visas were actually designed for).

No, perhaps I should try some FOIAs, however given this is info about a specific firm, may not get it.

precedent in here :

Two thirds of intra-company transfer visas go to IT staff | Information Age

[darmstadt]

Who are these "British IT leaders" of which you speak ?

Alan Sugar? Clive Sinclair? The IT management at RBS?

[doodab]

Who are these "British IT leaders" of which you speak ?

We gave the world ITIL and PRINCE2, someone somewhere must count as a leader.

[Dominic Connor]

>1 Indian nationals here on ICT visas get to work the first 12 months free of employers and employees national insurance, >not very hard to undercut Brits with this regime in place is it?

No it isn't.

>2 Indian nationals get to count lots as "expenses" which a Brit working far away from home within the UK cannot, so if I >live in London but work in Glasgow I am at a significant disadvantage to someone working in Glasgow from India - why?

But you can claim expenses if you went to India, I've worked abroad a reasonable amount and done so.
I'm not sure this counts as much of an advantage, living away from home is usually far more expensive, so although there is some advantage, I'm not sure it is much.


>3 If you think the tax avoidance of Amazon, Google, Starbucks justify questions try having a look at the tax affairs of >Cognizant, Infosys, Tata, et al.
yes, good point.

4 Any idea how many people are on the UK payroll of Cognizant, Infosys, Wipro, etc ? Any idea what percentage are ICT visa holder (or holders of indefinite leave to remain or British passports given simply for working here a while?) Any idea how many are subcontracted onto other organisations and not really working for their parent company (in the spirit Intra Company Visas were actually designed for).

No, perhaps I should try some FOIAs, however given this is info about a specific firm, may not get it.

>5 any idea how many Indian owners of Indian IT outsourcing outfits are on Camerons "business advisory committee"? >Compare and contrast to the number of British IT leaders?

Who are these "British IT leaders" of which you speak ?

[vetran]

Thanks for replying Dominic

who's winning in ICT Visas sweepstakes

Two thirds of intra-company transfer visas go to IT staff | Information Age


This might give you a good reference

They don't pay much tax:

House of Commons - Home Affairs Committee - Written Evidence

The tax side particularly caught my attention as it appears that intra-company transferees pay little income tax in the UK, yet consume public services like the NHS and schools.

Its not reciprocal:

The biggest users of tier 2 ICT visas tend to use Indian workers, and the Indian government actively opposes any restrictions on Indian professionals working in other countries. However India itself has a restrictive employment visa policy (see the Indian Ministry of Home Affairs website):

http://www.mha.nic.in/pdfs/work_visa_faq.pdf
14. In summary, India has a cap on companies employing foreign professional workers of 1% of their workforce (to a maximum of 20 foreigners). IT workers are not included in the cap provided they are paid at least $25,000, which is 30 times the average Indian salary and twice the average Indian IT worker's salary. Indian missions abroad also have the right to deny an employment visa if they think a qualified Indian worker would be available. India has a zero cap on employment visas for non-professional workers.

Computer weekly have managed to do a series on it

India won't miss UK aid because intra company transfers are as charitable as can be. - Inside Outsourcing


Graph is staggering!

British companies bypass immigration cap on skilled migrants | UK news | The Guardian

splits

TCS's UK workforce is reducing as UK business grows - Inside Outsourcing



your example of the savings now just about covers it, but the cost long term is fewer UK people in IT (a vary enlightened employer, I have seen more ethnic minorities in a powerful position in IT than in almost any other area.) Degree applications falling and economic losses.

future
Comment: UK Big Business exploits visa loophole to decimate IT jobs - Onshoring abuse continues as Cameron ponders immigration cap | TechEye

Many say just man up and retrain but like the steel / Coal & ship building industry once we lose it then it will be hard to get back.