Reply to: hark at her

[SueEllen]

Always seemed to be the case that women do not go for techie jobs. When I did my engineering degree umpteen yonks ago there was only one but they were overrepresented in stuff like social studies and pharmacy. I doubt they were excluded from pure science and engineering courses, they just didn't seem interested in doing them.

I knew a few women doing engineering degrees at uni.

Most of them worked out either just before graduation or within 2 years of working they would get more money becoming an accountant in the UK.

Also if you want your daughter to do a technical or engineering degree you actually have to take time out to do such stuff at home with her. Most fathers don't.

Then you have to convince her she will get a better wage with a job in one of those areas. Again most fathers don't.

They want their kids to be happy so let them do any tulip at uni without advising them so they end up unemployed afterwards.

[SueEllen]

Although saying that it does make me feel uncomfortable when they are changing stuff in favour of women....

Google crafts algorithms to get more women in more positions ? The Register

There is a fine line between encouraging women and discrimination.

You didn't read the article did you?

Men and women communicate differently.

Women don't feel the need to boast so if you aren't use to interviewing women or haven't been let down by a bulltulipter, you need to change the way you ask questions.

[xoggoth]

Always seemed to be the case that women do not go for techie jobs. When I did my engineering degree umpteen yonks ago there was only one but they were overrepresented in stuff like social studies and pharmacy. I doubt they were excluded from pure science and engineering courses, they just didn't seem interested in doing them.

[mudskipper]

Does she have any evidence that her opinion counts for less or it just her feeling?
Then isn't this due to her being less confident than her colleagues rather than her gender?


For comparison, although this is not a work story ... it is about sword fighting again (sorry but it is relevant, honest) . There is a gentleman on the full contact scene whom is considered to be awesome and regularly spoken about in reverence and it is considered to be very unlucky to be drawn against him, I have fought him and thrashed him (not just beaten but THRASHED, he failed to hit me and I hit him every time I tried) but somehow no one seems to remember it and still talks of how awesome he is.

There is a tournament in August and the group running it might be recalling one of their sword experts who currently lives in Eastern Europe, people have mentioned that he is returning and how it will be a serious issue as he is fantastic etc - I have fought this man many times (he used to live near me and we trained at the same group), he makes no secret of the fact that I am comfortably better than him with a sword but no one seems to be interested in this. Some of the people who tell me how good he is used to train with us when he was there and would have seen me beating him.

I am not sure exactly why I seem to leave absolustely no impression on people but I am generally quite modest and do not boast or brag so I assume that is what causes it.

Is your friend doing the same? She might be very good but if no one knows then she might need to draw a bit more attention to things she does well?

Quite possibly. But her perception is that it's because of her gender. So her gender's definitely relevant, even if only to her.

[Old Hack]

Indeed. Especially if he wants to remain on a level with you.
It is either that or use pictures to explain things to you!

Oh, the ironing from the self proclaimed king of the smillies

[vetran]

Does she have any evidence that her opinion counts for less or it just her feeling?


Is your friend doing the same? She might be very good but if no one knows then she might need to draw a bit more attention to things she does well?

Good point, its difficult to talk confidently unless you feel confident.

I am not sure exactly why I seem to leave absolustely no impression on people but I am generally quite modest and do not boast or brag so I assume that is what causes it.

Hark at him

[MyUserName]

She says she feels, for example, that in a team discussion her opinion seems to count for less than that of her male colleagues. She might be right. Her posture, manner etc are perhaps less confident/aggressive than the boys.

Does she have any evidence that her opinion counts for less or it just her feeling?
Then isn't this due to her being less confident than her colleagues rather than her gender?


For comparison, although this is not a work story ... it is about sword fighting again (sorry but it is relevant, honest) . There is a gentleman on the full contact scene whom is considered to be awesome and regularly spoken about in reverence and it is considered to be very unlucky to be drawn against him, I have fought him and thrashed him (not just beaten but THRASHED, he failed to hit me and I hit him every time I tried) but somehow no one seems to remember it and still talks of how awesome he is.

There is a tournament in August and the group running it might be recalling one of their sword experts who currently lives in Eastern Europe, people have mentioned that he is returning and how it will be a serious issue as he is fantastic etc - I have fought this man many times (he used to live near me and we trained at the same group), he makes no secret of the fact that I am comfortably better than him with a sword but no one seems to be interested in this. Some of the people who tell me how good he is used to train with us when he was there and would have seen me beating him.

I am not sure exactly why I seem to leave absolustely no impression on people but I am generally quite modest and do not boast or brag so I assume that is what causes it.

Is your friend doing the same? She might be very good but if no one knows then she might need to draw a bit more attention to things she does well?

[vetran]

She says she feels, for example, that in a team discussion her opinion seems to count for less than that of her male colleagues. She might be right. Her posture, manner etc are perhaps less confident/aggressive than the boys.

It's not something I've ever encountered (apart from in my first job where I was told that "crawling around under floors is not a suitable job for a young lady"!)

This may well be much of her problem

Creating a Powerful Personal Presence to Influence and Engage

If you can't guess I'm :

––“Brilliant. But not well liked. Just doesn’t connect with people.”
––“Doesn’t always use the appropriate language—too flippant, too laid back.”
––“Comes on too strong. Too intense. Needs to dial it back.”
––Too intense. High strung. Makes people uncomfortable.”
-–“Rambles. Knows her stuff, but gets off track and down in the weeds too easily.”

and working on it.

Seen real Girly Girls having people in the palm of their hands with far superior people skills. Technically they were mediocre (and quite willing to admit it). They were all fairly senior. They tend to use me for technical advice but don't let me rumble on.

Lets be honest most men prefer to listen to an attractive woman talking at a level they understand than a fat balding geek droning on.

[d000hg]

Google crafts algorithms to get more women in more positions

But which positions? Reverse cow-girl?

[mudskipper]

In what way?

She says she feels, for example, that in a team discussion her opinion seems to count for less than that of her male colleagues. She might be right. Her posture, manner etc are perhaps less confident/aggressive than the boys.

It's not something I've ever encountered (apart from in my first job where I was told that "crawling around under floors is not a suitable job for a young lady"!)

[MyUserName]

And the response to that remark:



So if it's culture rather than aptitude that's putting women off, shouldn't that be addressed?

I've got along fine in IT, but I've always had a tendency to be 'one of the lads'. My girly friend has had a much tougher time of it.

In what way?

[mudskipper]

That's probably why not many women work in IT.....

One of the comments sums it up to me: Equality is not always about equal quantity

And the response to that remark:

I'd suggest rather that some jobs have a cultural tendency to attract more of one gender than the other. I strongly believe that cultural norms and peer pressure can trump biology and genetics in almost every case of workplace gender bias.

So if it's culture rather than aptitude that's putting women off, shouldn't that be addressed?

I've got along fine in IT, but I've always had a tendency to be 'one of the lads'. My girly friend has had a much tougher time of it.

[shaunbhoy]

You're showing the intellect of an arse, and it's apt.

Indeed. Especially if he wants to remain on a level with you.
It is either that or use pictures to explain things to you!

[Wanderer]

'Women would never have made automated supermarket tills'

That's probably why not many women work in IT.....

One of the comments sums it up to me: Equality is not always about equal quantity

[bobspud]

We don't need technical bulltulipters at board level (there are plenty of those already). We need good techies who can communicate important concepts in technical terms and have the balls, personality and credibility to put their view across.

You're right about there not being many of those.

I know. That's how I make my living these days