Reply to: Spain OMG!

[shaunbhoy]

Would I want to go?

Not as much as you would want to come back if you ever did.

[shaunbhoy]

I've never been to Devon either - what's your point?

My point is that if you HAD been, you would have realised the improbability of persuading anyone that has not lost their marbles, or is left with no choice, to relocate there.

HTH

[Robinho]

Sounds like Catalonia will actually leave.

They had a march recently with 600k+ people present.

Scotland's march had 5,000 people

[Troll]

Interesting article about the Spanish Army being prepared to stop Catalan secession

I said it would be unthinkable for the Spanish state to stop Catalan secession by military force.

Such action would violate EU Treaties and lead to Spain’s suspension from the European Union. You do not do such things in the early 21st Century.

I may have underestimated the vigour of the Spanish officer corps.

First we have the robust comments of Colonel Francisco Alaman comparing the crisis to 1936 and vowing to crush Catalan nationalists, described as "vultures".

"Independence for Catalonia? Over my dead body. Spain is not Yugoslavia or Belgium. Even if the lion is sleeping, don’t provoke the lion, because he will show the ferocity proven over centuries," he said.

Now we have an explicit threat from the Asociación de Militares Españoles (AME), an organisation of retired army officers, warning that anybody promoting the break-up of Spain ("fractura de España") will face treason trials in military courts.

The attitude of the Catalan government and members of its parliament is inadmissible.

The Armed Forces are guardians of the Spanish state and its territorial integrity under Article 8 of the Constitution.

They will carry out this role "scrupulously and strictly" to defend the sovereignty and Carta Magna of the Spanish nation.

AME said any flicker of secession "must be suppressed". Violators must bear in mind that they "will have to respond with all rigour to the grave accusation of high treason under the jurisdiction of military tribunals".

[milanbenes]

Why? Do you buy the idea that it would lead to more jobs? Who told you that, employers who want to pay lower wages? MRDA: well, they would say that, wouldn't they?

Scrapping the minimum wage puts no more people in work, it just makes less income for the working poor and more profit for the employers. If there is any kind of welfare state it then supports the poor, so the net result is employers becoming richer at taxpayers' expense.

Why do you think it would be acceptable to employ someone and pay them less than a living wage?

you got that wrong,

the minimum wage actually becomes the maximum wage, ask anybody on the minimum wage

Milan.

[Troll]

OK the Shetland islanders would become an independent state, but then the English government's military would promptly provide Air & Sea cover (naturally for a small nominal fee) to stop any attempt at the Scots seizing the islands

FTFY

[Troll]

Never been to the Shetlands, have you?

I've never been to Devon either - what's your point?

[BrilloPad]

Never been to the Shetlands, have you?

Would I want to go?

[KentPhilip]

OK the Shetland islanders would become an independent state, but then the British government's military would promptly invade them on some pretext and pinch the oil.
If it was that easy then Argentina would have bought property on the Falkland islands to get soverignty over that island + all of its associated oil assets.

[shaunbhoy]

Given that there is only a population of 22000 living in 10000 households it would be relatively easy to buy up sufficient properties and influx a more amenable population to get a controlling vote in the 7 wards on Shetland to begin the process of becoming an independent state.

Never been to the Shetlands, have you?

[speling bee]

Actually it's mostly the Shetlands oil and the pawning to Scotland of the Shetland Isles in 1468 would be easily overturned in Strasbourg.

Given that there is only a population of 22000 living in 10000 households it would be relatively easy to buy up sufficient properties and influx a more amenable population to get a controlling vote in the 7 wards on Shetland to begin the process of becoming an independent state.

Given the oil riches that would then flow directly to the Shetlands for their own use, rather than being used for subsidising general unemployment on the mainland and smack heads in Glasgow in particular, the new state of Shetland would become per capita one of the richest within Europe if not the world.

Currently for sale in the Shetlands:

land for those wanting solitude

Hotel

House

An independent Shetland does look viable. But what happens when the most Northerly island proclaims independence?

[Troll]

Actually it's mostly the Shetlands oil and the pawning to Scotland of the Shetland Isles in 1468 would be easily overturned in Strasbourg.

Given that there is only a population of 22000 living in 10000 households it would be relatively easy to buy up sufficient properties and influx a more amenable population to get a controlling vote in the 7 wards on Shetland to begin the process of becoming an independent state.

Given the oil riches that would then flow directly to the Shetlands for their own use, rather than being used for subsidising general unemployment on the mainland and smack heads in Glasgow in particular, the new state of Shetland would become per capita one of the richest within Europe if not the world.

Currently for sale in the Shetlands:

land for those wanting solitude

Hotel

House

[d000hg]

What an odd thread. Pictures of Spanish riots interspersed with discussions on Scottish independence.

[Robinho]

The separation alone will cause a massive amount of waste and probably put both countries into recession (or futher into it). Think of all the SHMRCs, the SDVLAs, Scottish Army, Scottish Embassies that would have to be formed. Basically billions will be spent cutting up a highly integrated state to make the remains less integrated. Scotland's biggest trade partner is England by a staggering margin, it would be stupid beyond belief to diminish that common market. You can throw around the "ohhh but we put in a few billion more than we got in this one year" all you like, but in the end those figures will be chicken feed compared to the disruptive impact, and they are chicken feed anyway... like 1 or 2% of the GDP of Scotland and 0.00X % of English GDP.

I genuinely believe the majority of support is from Scots that simply hate the English or Scots with a chip on their shoulder. All the other arguments like Trident, and the Illegal wars, or the deficit are just hand wringing. Most of the aforementioned things were perpetrated by the rather Scottish Labour cabinet backed fully by Scots anyway.

[Old Hack]

Czechoslovakia did it the civilised way with a 2:1 split between the two new states. Dissolution of Czechoslovakia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But if an independent Scotland wanted a similar approach, would it be taking on 8 to 9% of responsibilities for British overseas territories etc.? The rump UK would I think claim to be the successor state so the whole thing might not be as simple as Czechoslovakia.

And any plan to keep sterling is crazy.

But, with a debt ratio they'd inherit, they wouldn't be able to join the Euro.

You have to remember, two of the biggest banks to fail, were [the] RBOS and BOS, so simply giving them a ratio of the bank bailout debt based on a per capita basis, might not form the basis of any negotiations. I have read that the UK would not cede the marine environment according to the Geneva convention (which would give them 90% of oil revenue), but that they believe the UK would want it on a per capita basis too, based on the epic investment the UK have provided in the fields there. Some economists are predicting that the Barnett formula may also be used against an independent Scotland when negotiating the distribution of its assets i.e. that they receive more per capita then residents in England.

I think any devolution would take an awful long time to sort out and it's never going to be a simple matter even if the Scots say yes to it.