Reply to: Lance Armstrong - Hero or Zero?

[Mich the Tester]

Zero. But only because he's American.

BBC magazine suggests that doping should be permitted, but if testing shows levels of some hormones etc. are above certain levels, then the athlete is suspended for their own health.

Silly suggestion to allow doping; that would open up a new can of worms. However, there needs to be some accceptance that some top athletes are basically freaks of nature, and something about them makes them completely dominant; it's not just training and discipline, but a superior ability to react to training (supercompensate) and often some wierd physical 'difference' that puts them ahead of others.

[NotAllThere]

Zero. But only because he's American.

BBC magazine suggests that doping should be permitted, but if testing shows levels of some hormones etc. are above certain levels, then the athlete is suspended for their own health.

[BolshieBastard]

There's been several cases of athletes admitting to the use of PED's even though they never failed a doping test. Marion jones being one of the most high profile.

I think its different someone admitting they used drugs to a doping body saying we find someone guilty of doping but we dont have any proof.

[Mich the Tester]

There's been several cases of athletes admitting to the use of PED's even though they never failed a doping test. Marion jones being one of the most high profile.

Yes, and the treatment Marion Jones got from the US authorities after her admissions will probably ensure nobody in their right mind ever admits to previous wrongdoings.

The whole thing is being run very very badly indeed. Accept that in the past there was a lot of abuse; nobody who has competed in sport at any level above Old Wobblebellians Extra 5th XV can be under the illusion that there wasn't. Now there is a comprehensive system that makes it very very difficult (but not impossible, as it's probably impossible to make things impossible) to get away with using drugs or blood doping. Let the records and standings from the past stand; they will eventually be eclipsed. Bringing up stuff from the past can only end up damaging the reputation of the sports now, just as they're trying to rebuild.

[Mich the Tester]

Interesting article here

I suspect he was doping. It was the culture in endurance cycling at the time, and so to comprehensivly and repeatedly outclass competitors who have since admitted doping, he's either a freak-of-nature type athlete (a possibility I'm willing accept), or he was juiced. When viewed along side all the circumstantial evidence, I'm not hopefull he was clean.

Completely besides the point. We know that there was a lot of doping in cycling back then; personally I know that there was doping going on in rugby back then but if you want me to name names you'd have to threaten me with a red hot poker and my pants down. That's why the testing regime is much stricter now, which is a good thing, although I'm a bit concerned that it's starting to stretch the bounds of scientific insight. The point in this case is that someone has been done on hearsay by an organisation which has got itself the power to say 'some people who've been done for drugs are saying you've used drugs and if you don't prove your innocence then you are guilty'. That is completely wrong and risks undermining the whole approach to stopping drug use. If the sportspeople and the sports governing bodies lose confidence in WADA because of this kind of tyrannical practise then we're further than ever from the goal of eradicating drug use from sport.

[SupremeSpod]

Let's have events where performance enhancing drugs can be used, then we can see what a human body is really capable of.

[d000hg]

Drugs or not, winning something as horrific as the TdF 7 times is still incredible.

[TheBigD]

I dont see how they can legitimately ban anyone without positive samples. Hopefully, we are not yet at a stage where any governing body can say 'you're banned because we say you cheated' without the evidence.

There's been several cases of athletes admitting to the use of PED's even though they never failed a doping test. Marion jones being one of the most high profile.

[TheBigD]

Interesting article here

I suspect he was doping. It was the culture in endurance cycling at the time, and so to comprehensivly and repeatedly outclass competitors who have since admitted doping, he's either a freak-of-nature type athlete (a possibility I'm willing accept), or he was juiced. When viewed along side all the circumstantial evidence, I'm not hopefull he was clean.

[Mich the Tester]

Hopefully, we are not yet at a stage where any governing body can say 'you're banned because we say you cheated' without the evidence.

That's precisely the stage we're at now, although it's actually WADA, including USADA, which seems to have more power than the sports governing bodies themselves.

[BolshieBastard]

I dont see how they can legitimately ban anyone without positive samples. Hopefully, we are not yet at a stage where any governing body can say 'you're banned because we say you cheated' without the evidence.

If they have evidence, then that's a different matter but, my understand is he's never failed a drug check unlike others who have. So, either he had a way to negate the checks or he passed all the checks.

I dont see his decision to pack in fighting this is in any way an admission of guilt nor, do I understand his decision not to continue fighting this. However, the devil is in the detail. If he does believe its a plain and simple witch hunt then, no matter what evidence he produces will be rejected making him think what is the point.

I dont think this will be the end of the matter though despite what he says.

[doomage]

He must have been on something to appear in that movie Dodgeball



Actually that was a great movie.

[fullyautomatix]

I doubt he has doped but then blood doping in such endurance races are so complex that techniques to detect them are still emerging.

I think the strength of evidence against him was his team mates claiming that he did but no real scientific evidence.

Either way, its sad that they are pursuing someone like him who battled cancer and is a great role model in his country.

[moggy]

Quite. You have to trust the procedures in place at the time. Tittle tattle years after the event doesn't cut it.
I don't know whether he's guilty or not, but, in the absence of hard evidence to the contrary, his titles should stand.

Agreed, i like to think he is clean, would certainly be a shame if he wasn't!

But I believe now what they do is keep the samples, so that in years to come we will know if people were ahead of the tests. This was certainly happening at the olympics.

[Mich the Tester]

If that statement alone goes unchallenged then be very afraid citizens.

Yep. Absolutely sick.