Reply to: Computer Science graduates have the highest unemployment rate

[NotAllThere]

It used to be that the value of a degree was that it should a certain level of critical and analytical thinking. Not, as some employers want it, technical training.

I have a computer science and maths degree. For the CS part, in the first year, everyone had to do programming - using Modula 2, including algorithms, P, NP etc; and chip architecture, which included some assembler programming. Of all that I learned during my three years at university, I think there were only two things I learned that were useful in my later career.

1. Recursion
2. That it's impossible to write guaranteed error free code.

[doodab]

It's a good job any half-decent CompSci course teaches this then.

On the other hand, when you learn programming in a non CS field such as maths or physics, they don't teach any of the theoretical underpinnings. So code written by such people - unless they took the time to self-teach themselves this stuff - is typically very bad. 2D loops, not using standard collections/algorithm language features, etc.

Exactly, that's kind of the point. Computers are now ubiquitous and it's ridiculous to simply hope that everyone who programs them will have the benefit of a degree level computer science education. We need to get basic concepts and principles like computability, algorithmic complexity, basic data structures and the parts of a computer and the sorts of primitive operations it can perform into people's heads when they are young, as we (try to) do with other "everyday" things like maths and grammar.

[d000hg]

I am inclined to agree with you. I think it's useful to have at least some knowledge of the algorithms and data structures that calling sort() on your generic collections is likely to employ as well.

It's a good job any half-decent CompSci course teaches this then.

On the other hand, when you learn programming in a non CS field such as maths or physics, they don't teach any of the theoretical underpinnings. So code written by such people - unless they took the time to self-teach themselves this stuff - is typically very bad. 2D loops, not using standard collections/algorithm language features, etc.

[doodab]

I think part of it is that the current generation doesn't have access to the same sort of machines we had. The early home computers inspired and required you learn about the hardware and basic data structures and algorithms in a certain level of detail which meant that a lot of people of my generation simply picked this stuff up from various sources as kids. There was no real need to teach it to us in school. These days kids are more likely to be coding up "apps" for their phone or facebook or whatever and while that isn't necessarily a bad thing they are going to be doing it using libraries and high level languages that isolate them from a lot of the nitty gritty of what makes a computer tick.

TBH I think the raspberry pi, although it's aims are laudable, is a little bit too sophisticated and might be a bit of a missed opportunity to get some of that low level stuff back on the menu. I wonder if someone might develop a simpler non-multi-tasking non-virtual-memory operating system / basic (or java or python or whatever) interpreter for it to boot in place of linux.

[Regent]

that would be the postings youve not bothered to even read before calling me a "knob" right??

Given some consideration, I believe the best thing for you to do is to ignore the troll and stop feeding it.

HTH.

[d000hg]

Oh look the Typo Police have arrived... Whats wrong? - poor little CompSci grad couldn't get a real job so you decided to join the typo police??
I bet business is booming if you're posting at 01:20am, and bet you're commanding a great day rate trawling the web spell checking other peoples posts... Now crawl back into your hole and come back when you have something useful to contribute to the thread... Until then, if all you have to offer is the age old comeback of "you made a typo", you're wasting your time... run along now old chap...

Somewhere in one of those threads you begged us to read, you made a big deal about people making personal insults against you. So much so you keep referring back to it. Didn't take long to show you up.

Thankyou - finally someone knows what im talking about!!
However it seems that puts us firmly in the minority, as most on this forum seem content with only knowing high level stuff, and they wonder why their jobs are getting outsourced

Why don't you give a concrete example where writing a WDSL web service benefits from knowing how a transistor works, if you want to turn this thread back to a serious bent?

[Joeman]

I am inclined to agree with you. I think it's useful to have at least some knowledge of the algorithms and data structures that calling sort() on your generic collections is likely to employ as well.

Thankyou - finally someone knows what im talking about!!
However it seems that puts us firmly in the minority, as most on this forum seem content with only knowing high level stuff, and they wonder why their jobs are getting outsourced

[doodab]

If you're happy knowing only high level stuff, then go ahead, knock yourself out, but personally for me, if i spend all day operating a machine, i like to ensure i know as much as possible about how its working... you may not share that opinion, but does that really justify the names and abuse you've been hurling my way??

I am inclined to agree with you. I think it's useful to have at least some knowledge of the algorithms and data structures that calling sort() on your generic collections is likely to employ as well.

[doodab]

Employers dont bother to look for applicants who could learn to do what they want. They don't want the hassle of actually training people, having apprentices and spending time and money developing people.
That is the problem.

WPS.

I was lucky that my first contract was 4 years spent working for an old school IT guy who was happy to give me stuff I didn't already know about and let me figure it out.

[DodgyAgent]

You could say that about any numerate degree these days. I would expect anyone who has a good physics or maths degree to be able to pick up programming in a modern language without too much hassle.

The trouble is that from an academic perspective computing crosses a lot of boundaries, at a lot of older universities computer science will have started out as something the mathematics department did and would probably have a very theoretical slant to it, whereas day to day in industry and business it has more in common with engineering. I think for in depth knowledge of skills more immediately applicable to the workplace one might want to look at a "software engineering" or "computing" degree.

I'd agree that comp sci grads ought to have some knowledge of the low level workings of a modern computer, I would have though that stuff like the hardware/software interface, OS design and compiler design would be at least elective courses, but I don't really think that web coding skills that will be out of date in a few years ought to be an end in themselves.

Computer science degrees have little recognition in the commercial world. I do not see why anyone with strong maths or physics would do anything other than an engineering degree. Computer science is a "soft" degree unless you are going to go into computing and be a bit of a geek. Electrical/mechanical/civil Engineering degrees are extremely difficult and this is recognised by employers. Many senior executives in FTSE 100 companies are Engineering graduates, I doubt you will find anyone with a computer science degree working outside of IT.

[Old Greg]

Nothing.. you??

I find a bit of gentle banter is a pleasant way to pass the time while I'm on the train.

Maybe you should lighten up a bit and you might find it a bit more enjoyable.

[Joeman]

I'm sure they can work out how to get a bloody spell checker to work though. I'm getting a headache just trying to read your rants.

Oh look the Typo Police have arrived... Whats wrong? - poor little CompSci grad couldn't get a real job so you decided to join the typo police??
I bet business is booming if you're posting at 01:20am, and bet you're commanding a great day rate trawling the web spell checking other peoples posts... Now crawl back into your hole and come back when you have something useful to contribute to the thread... Until then, if all you have to offer is the age old comeback of "you made a typo", you're wasting your time... run along now old chap...

[Incognito]

I cant actually be arsed with this thread anymore.. look back at the abuse you guys have given me all because i expressed a simple opinion that CompSci undergrads arent tought the fundamental basics of how a computer works.

I'm sure they can work out how to get a bloody spell checker to work though. I'm getting a headache just trying to read your rants.

[Joeman]

What are you getting out of this?

Nothing.. you??

[eek]

What are you getting out of this?

Stress relief. To be honest ing would be a better plan.