Reply to: Hillsborough

[BoredBloke]

It will all come out with the release of the papers.

No it won't because if it does not show what the families want they will simply claim that not all the details have been released and that there is some kind of cover up

Hillsbourgh was an accident waiting to happpen and it's unfair to say it was the fault of just the fans/police etc - an old and inadequate stadium dealing with too many supporters, many of whom should not ahve been there. Each party have to take a portion of the blame. The police handled the incident badly, but their actions in opening the exit were possibly done for the right reasons with a very wrong outcome. I doubt very much had the coppers the benefit of hindsight then the gates would not have been opened and people would be complaining about people beng crushed to death outside the ground. However, by the same token, had the Liverpool fans not been intent on steaming the ground then the situation would not have arose. Both parties played their part in the disaster and both should hold their hands up and admit it. And this is why I don't like this constantly being dragged up - it's like the Liverpool fands want to absolve themselvess of any part in this - it wasn't the police pushing!! As hard as it is to take, some Liverpool fans have to take some responsibility for the fact that they did play a part in the deaths of 96 of their fellow supporters. Possibily as much as the police

[Doggy Styles]

Someone is in denial here.

The tragedy was very unlikely to have happened if those thousands of ticketless fans had not turned up in order to blag their way into the game.

Like they'd done before, and have done since.

[BlasterBates]

There is a long history of football hooliganism prior to 1989, often paired with mobs of ticketless fans forcing their way into stadiums having gone to the game primarily for the aggro with rival 'firms'.

The police and groundsmen should have been prepared for this happening (a mob turning up trying to get entry) regardless of cause (ticketless and/or late arriving) as it's happened at many matches both home and abroad since at least the early 70s.

The point here is there is a mob, ok one can lay blame at the ground for not controlling the crowd properly, but in the end if there wasn't an unruly mob it wouldn't have happened.

If they hadn't opened the gates supporters would have been crushed outside. The police were between a rock and a hard place. If they hadn't opened the gates they would have been criticised for not opening them.

Difficult to know this will happen when it hasn't happened before.

The police had learned from the hooliganism, they seggregated the fans and this problem was not caused by fighting fans.

If there hadn't been roadworks on the M62 it probably wouldn't have happened.

[Churchill]

There is a long history of football hooliganism prior to 1989, often paired with mobs of ticketless fans forcing their way into stadiums having gone to the game primarily for the aggro with rival 'firms'.

The police and groundsmen should have been prepared for this happening (a mob turning up trying to get entry) regardless of cause (ticketless and/or late arriving) as it's happened at many matches both home and abroad since at least the early 70s.

That post stinks of "Let's blame someone else!".

[PAH]

I think at that time stadiums weren't buit to cope with the level of violence that was normal at football matches. I could imagine it would be almost impossible for the police to control crowds like that.

There is a long history of football hooliganism prior to 1989, often paired with mobs of ticketless fans forcing their way into stadiums having gone to the game primarily for the aggro with rival 'firms'.

The police and groundsmen should have been prepared for this happening (a mob turning up trying to get entry) regardless of cause (ticketless and/or late arriving) as it's happened at many matches both home and abroad since at least the early 70s.

[BlasterBates]

Are we sure the Liverpool fans were behaving? The Heysel Stadium disaster was around that time. Even though people had been killed in that incident, they continued the match because they were scared of more rioting.

I think at that time stadiums weren't buit to cope with the level of violence that was normal at football matches. I could imagine it would be almost impossible for the police to control crowds like that.

[eek]

I do not want to blame anybody. This was a tragedy of circumstances but all I see is a bunch of Scousers determined to cleanse themselves and their mates of any responsibility and lay the whole sorry mess firmly at the door of the police.

The problem is that they tried to create a distraction to try to avoid the blame. Now when colleagues or my children try and do that I want to know why and this is no different.

[FiveTimes]

Which minister was that?

It will all come out with the release of the papers.

[Arturo Bassick]

Are you sure they are trying to lay blame - there has already been reports etc into who's fault it was and it was quite clear.

Is it right for the government ministers to pass false info to papers citing the fans ?

If the fault is clear then why carry on pushing? Why not lay it to rest?
As I said before, any report and any enquiry will never be complete and will always be biased because it is impossible to hold internal enquiries into the behaviour of the fans. All the official bodies, Police, FA etc. will hold their own and will try and wash their hands of it or scape goat somebody.

[Spacecadet]

Is it right for the government ministers to pass false info to papers citing the fans ?

Which minister was that?

[FiveTimes]

I do not want to blame anybody. This was a tragedy of circumstances but all I see is a bunch of Scousers determined to cleanse themselves and their mates of any responsibility and lay the whole sorry mess firmly at the door of the police.

Are you sure they are trying to lay blame - there has already been reports etc into who's fault it was and it was quite clear.

Is it right for the government ministers to pass false info to papers citing the fans ?

[Arturo Bassick]

You are entitled to your view and it appears to be one of its all the fans fault. Regardless of whether you are right. Your view is one of the many ignorant people who feel the need to blame only the fans..

I do not want to blame anybody. This was a tragedy of circumstances but all I see is a bunch of Scousers determined to cleanse themselves and their mates of any responsibility and lay the whole sorry mess firmly at the door of the police.

[eek]

They should not have been there in the first place.
If you are going to blame the bizzies for their part you have to recognise the part played by everybody else.

Which shows that it was the police's fault as they should have stopped the ticketless getting close enough to the stadium for them to cause the issue.

And both you say that the police don't do that, nowadays stopping the ticketless well before the venue is standard police procedure for popular events.

[FiveTimes]

They should not have been there in the first place.
If you are going to blame the bizzies for their part you have to recognise the part played by everybody else.

Lots of elements were to blame, yes the fans surged and rushed to see their team.
Yes some of them had no tickets and no right to be there.

The police failed to react accordingly, failed to delay the kick off, failed to open the gates

The ground was inadequate.

[eek]

Just cos it didn't happen doesn't mean it wasn't big enough. If all the pens hold 2000 people then 2000 tickets would have been issued.
The ticketless and late comers should have realised that there was no room for them and stopped pushing.

It doesn't work like that but then again I know something about crowds and crowd dynamics and you clearly don't.

The simple fact is that the crimes the police accused the fans of are not relevant to what occurred. To both accusations you can add the words so what and it doesn't change the story that the police failed to manage the crowd and then used a crap story to distract reporters from looking into their total incompetency.