Reply to: Holiday declined

[Mich the Tester]

It is awkward mind. Some clients do tend to think of human beings as a resource they can treat like automatons but dont have to be nice to.

ftfy, and they can shove it.

[psychocandy]

It is awkward mind. Some clients do tend to think of contractors as a resource they can treat like permies but dont have to be nice to.

As for the substitution thing, does it ever happen? Not for me and what I do anyway - but I'm not a developer of any sort so maybe its possible there.

But if you've booked holiday and told them at renewal time then they're bang out of order here.

I guess at the end of the day though, its a thin line between being nice to client to keep them sweet and get extensions etc and taking it up the arse. This, I would suggest is taking it up the arse.

Personally, I'd tell them tough tulipe I told you in advance so sod off. Chances are they'll back down I reckon. If they don't then its up to you decide if you want to continue with this client because what other bollox like this are they likely to pull in the future?

[lukemg]

What is this 'holiday thing' of which you speak ?
Just work yourself to death due to fear of benchtime and never take time off - job done....

[Mich the Tester]

I've just had my contract renewed for another 4 months due to having plans for Christmas/new year this year I will need 2 weeks off over that period, I have let them know and its been declined.

I have never had this before and don't know how to handle it really as this has been planned way before there was any hint of an extension.

Its not something I will budge on, my job is a general one so no set things to delivery by certain times etc. At the start of my last renewal I told them I would need 2 weeks off in August as I was going away on holiday and got told they would have to check to see if anyone else was out those weeks to see if it was ok??? My holiday had been already booked and paid for again well before the offer it was not me asking it was more me telling them i had to have that time!

Has anyone else had this and how have you handled it?

You are a contractor. You are your own boss. Does that answer your question? Should I help by writing a tactful, diplomatic e-mail explaining to them in very polite terms where they should insert their delusions?

By the way, even a permie should tell them where to stuff it. Some employers seem to think they own people.

[MarillionFan]

NorthernladUK - I have only just been renewed so have advised them at renewal point.

I work through an umbrella so not effect by IR35.

I have kept the email I sent informing them, I am not actually going away but have plans arranged with family. I am not going to get in a cat fight now about it as I have a weeks notice in the contract so like people have said if need be I will wait till a week before and then give it, not ideal but if it comes to it then I will.

I have always thought surely they must know this could happen anyhow but I suppose they assume you would not put yourself out of a job.

It's just panicky management. They'll just have to lump it.

[curtis]

NorthernladUK - I have only just been renewed so have advised them at renewal point.

I work through an umbrella so not effect by IR35.

I have kept the email I sent informing them, I am not actually going away but have plans arranged with family. I am not going to get in a cat fight now about it as I have a weeks notice in the contract so like people have said if need be I will wait till a week before and then give it, not ideal but if it comes to it then I will.

I have always thought surely they must know this could happen anyhow but I suppose they assume you would not put yourself out of a job.

[d000hg]

No, but they are 2 pretty big ones - and an outright fail on both of them combined is surely going to be a major headache in an enquiry.

The point is that the OP doesn't seem to understand the consequences of having contractural clauses that do not apply in reality.

Are the chances of being investigated low, probably - will HMRC actually notice it anyway, maybe not. Could it still be defended, possibly.

But simply pretending that there is no problem - doesn't make the problem go away. Those that have lost IR35 cases (plus those that folded early) are those that haven't bothered to understand/act on these issues.

But on the other hand IR35 nuts like to think that a B2B relationship is one where they can work as they damn well please. In real life, that's not how B2B works - SLAs and stuff come in, and a client needs a dependable and reliable supplier. Contractors are stuck in the middle and get obsessed with how they are a business, far more so than a real business would

[cojak]

WEveryoneS.

Yesterday I sent an email to my new boss (same client) setting out the dates I wasn't available between now and Christmas.

And I saved a copy of the mail as well...

(if they fire me they'll be doing me a favour )

[centurian]

No they won't. RoS and MOO are two of the things looked at. You don't have to meet all of them.

No, but they are 2 pretty big ones - and an outright fail on both of them combined is surely going to be a major headache in an enquiry.

The point is that the OP doesn't seem to understand the consequences of having contractural clauses that do not apply in reality.

Are the chances of being investigated low, probably - will HMRC actually notice it anyway, maybe not. Could it still be defended, possibly.

But simply pretending that there is no problem - doesn't make the problem go away. Those that have lost IR35 cases (plus those that folded early) are those that haven't bothered to understand/act on these issues.

[Alf W]

I've just had my contract renewed for another 4 months due to having plans for Christmas/new year this year I will need 2 weeks off over that period, I have let them know and its been declined.

I have never had this before and don't know how to handle it really as this has been planned way before there was any hint of an extension.

Its not something I will budge on, my job is a general one so no set things to delivery by certain times etc. At the start of my last renewal I told them I would need 2 weeks off in August as I was going away on holiday and got told they would have to check to see if anyone else was out those weeks to see if it was ok??? My holiday had been already booked and paid for again well before the offer it was not me asking it was more me telling them i had to have that time!

Has anyone else had this and how have you handled it?

Is today National Doormat Day? I'm going away with the family in 2 likely extensions away and have informed the hiring manager that I won't be available then should it come to it so he should ensure that is built into his resourcing plans. I don't play the substitution clause card as everyone in this industry knows its bollocks.

[TestMangler]

Then you had better make sure you are applying IR35 and paying the 25%+ national insurance, because HMRC will chew you up and spit you out if you cannot show that you can execute a RoS in practice.

Same will apply with needing permission for holiday. Sounds like you are so far up the @rse of IR35 - it would be pointless trying to fight a case.

[d000hg]

Then you had better make sure you are applying IR35 and paying the 25%+ national insurance, because HMRC will chew you up and spit you out if you cannot show that you can execute a RoS in practice.

No they won't. RoS and MOO are two of the things looked at. You don't have to meet all of them.

[centurian]

I hear the right of substitution mentioned a lot but how practical is that as I know they won't go for that at all.

Then you had better make sure you are applying IR35 and paying the 25%+ national insurance, because HMRC will chew you up and spit you out if you cannot show that you can execute a RoS in practice.

Same will apply with needing permission for holiday. Sounds like you are so far up the @rse of IR35 - it would be pointless trying to fight a case.

[darrenb]

My advice would be to take the client to your home and introduce him to the plight of Tiny Tim. Then he will surely give you Christmas Day off.

[northernladuk]

did you sign the contract and then drop this one on him or did you advise him at the time of renewal?

I imagine you would have been in a better position if you advised him at renewal.

I would love to see how many clients would take a sub. I bet it is close to zero. Just usless words on a contract.