Reply to: Working hours

[bobspud]

As an aside, an 8 hour day is not a Professsional Working Day, it's an hourly contract giving the client free hours for working overtime. A PWD means you charge a set amount for working during any 24 hour period, regardless of how long for.

It does not give anyone anything for free... It provides the client with a minimum set of hours you will be expected to work for a day rate. Once you go over the 8 hours in your day it's down to you to make it clear that the customer will be charged accordingly. I suggest you have a chat with a solicitor and see if he will give you three free hours of work when you pay for 8. It's time the industry got united on this and stopp being a bunch of weak spined pussies... I have actually worked on sites along side people charging 8 hours for 14 while I charged 2 days on the exactly the same contract terms....

By all means give free time away if you wish. But I am an IT whore and I charge my time accordingly PWD or hourly rate.

[northernladuk]

Sounds like you are on your way out.

A professional working day in my book is what the clients wants.

If the company has certain core hours, it is reasonable to work accordingly.

If you negotiate different to company core hours this will need to be done BEFORE you accept.

I do very different hours to company core hours as a permie, but could not as a contractor. I negotiated my different hours before accepting.

What would it be like for you if the company teminated you? Would you rather accept a poxy hours difference to keep the contract?

You have some serious thinking to do.

ADMIN ADMIN!!! Wilmslow has been hacked!! This makes sense to me!!! Heyalp!!!

[MarillionFan]

I'm a great believer in getting the job done.

I do tend to work a PWD but have the number of hours put in the contract and also have any start times/finish times removed. That way its flexible.

Saying that though, if I need to be in early or stay late i will arrange childcare accordingly unless a last minute request where the answer is no and if a job needs finishing because of deadlines I will work extra hours & take the time back accordingly or invoice for extra part days if previously agreed.

[MikeToml]

Excuse this thread necromancy

But this thread highlights something for me re IR35

As an independent business with a single client, I want to do everything reasonable to comply with their wishes because if I p*ss them off, bye bye contract. And they're paying me a lot of money so I want to keep them happy. If I were an employee I could be a bit stroppier.

On the other hand, if I do whatever they tell me I'm being controlled and deemed an employee.

It feels like you can't win.

[somewebguy]

Do bear in mind that Wilmslow is a permie.

Ah, that explains it!

[somewebguy]

That sounds far worse than "professional working day". It implies that you will work the normal working hours the permies do and doesn't give you the leeway of being different. I wouldn't be very happy to see that in a contract and would have changed it to read professional working day for my own peace of mind.

It is defined as: "number of hours required for the Contractor to perform the Services"

But that could mean anything. If I deliver my tasks ahead of time, I could go home when I want, surely? At the same time, if I don't and it is taking me longer, I would have to work later. I am quite happy with that. But as most clients can't handle that, we all end up doing more or less set hours.

[somewebguy]

What do you REALLY understand about IR35?

I have read a lot about it and talked to Bauer & Cottrell etc etc, so understand it pretty well. But obviously not everything, hence why I asked the question in the first place.

Most seem to use it to hide behind as a way for working whatever hours they like.

A professional working day is usually a lot more than finishing like a 9-5 permie at 5pm.

If you are a true contractor, you cannot wish for fluffy permie family friendly hours, and need to make arrangements and manage this accordingly.

If work life balance with hours you like are important, get a permie job with flex time and stop whinging.

I don't know any contractors in my industry, or my wifes (which is totally different) who work longer hours than the permies. Most are out the door on time. There is no reason why someone can't be a contractor and be there for their kids.

And I am not whinging. I am actually trying to come up with a constructive solution and am merely asking for some advice on the best way to do it. There is no need to be rude about it.

[eek]

I have just checked my contract and it actually says "Normal Working Hours". Not sure if there is a difference, but it seems to be very open to interpretation.

That sounds far worse than "professional working day". It implies that you will work the normal working hours the permies do and doesn't give you the leeway of being different. I wouldn't be very happy to see that in a contract and would have changed it to read professional working day for my own peace of mind.

[somewebguy]

If the attendance hours are necessary for you to do yuor job properly, and if they apply equally to permies and contractors in trhe same role, it is NOT a D&C issue and so is IR35 neutral. If the client is insisting simply to make the car park look full between certain hours, then it is a D&C issue and a big IR35 no-no.

They say it is to get the developers to work the same hours. But that is not going to happen anyway, as many of them come in later and some come in earlier. By trying the "core" hours, I am the only one actually doing the core hours!

[somewebguy]

Free overtime.

Which is why I've never ever worked a PWD.

If you want my time, you pay for it.

I have just checked my contract and it actually says "Normal Working Hours". Not sure if there is a difference, but it seems to be very open to interpretation.

[somewebguy]

I wish people would stop seeing everything in terms of IR35. The important word is "client" - i.e. the company whose requirements you're there to fulfill. There's no reason at all why they have to be reasonable about anything and you have no right to anything different. You just need to negotiate or walk.

I do agree with that, however, we have a duty for our working practices to be consistent with our contracts. And it depends on how much of a risk you want to take with IR35. All about balance.

[VectraMan]

In my experience firms are either totally flexible or non-flexible for everyone. By the sounds of this firm, as 5:30 is core hours its a non flexible company so I don't think Wilmslow's point would stand up.

WHS. I had a client that insisted on 8-5 for everybody, which was okay and most people who want flexible hours want to come in earlier, but they wouldn't entertain any idea of exceptions for contractors.

I wish people would stop seeing everything in terms of IR35. The important word is "client" - i.e. the company whose requirements you're there to fulfill. There's no reason at all why they have to be reasonable about anything and you have no right to anything different. You just need to negotiate or walk.

[malvolio]

One more time...

If the attendance hours are necessary for you to do yuor job properly, and if they apply equally to permies and contractors in trhe same role, it is NOT a D&C issue and so is IR35 neutral. If the client is insisting simply to make the car park look full between certain hours, then it is a D&C issue and a big IR35 no-no. If it's not in your contract, they can't enforce it, but as has been said, you may not be there long enough to debate the point.

As an aside, an 8 hour day is not a Professsional Working Day, it's an hourly contract giving the client free hours for working overtime. A PWD means you charge a set amount for working during any 24 hour period, regardless of how long for.

[Old Greg]

My preferences are similar and I am now doing a long commute so would like to see my little ones at some point in the week. Next week I'm going to start going in at 8:15 and heading off at 4:30, but if there's a meeting after 4:30 i'll stay for it.

I think they'll be O.K. with this as they are flexible with permies, but if not, then I guess it will be time to move on, which would be a shame as I've just got there.

The way I see IR35, is that they don't control you, but if they don't like it they are at liberty to terminate the contract. Equally, you can terminate (giving apprpriate notice) if it doens't work for you.

[eek]

One of the advantages of being a true contractor is that you can pick your gigs to suit your lifestyle. Sometimes you have to suck it up until something more suitable comes along but it's by no means the case that you can't negotiate hours to suit you and a lot of places will be just as flexible for contractors as they are for their own staff.

In my experience firms are either totally flexible or non-flexible for everyone. By the sounds of this firm, as 5:30 is core hours its a non flexible company so I don't think Wilmslow's point would stand up.