Reply to: Bob says you are all lazy bastards

[vetran]

AIUI IT Bob's are earning in real terms the equivalent of stockbrokers in their home country.

If you regularly have to work over time the staff are either incompetent or the managers are.

Flexibilti is fine the ability to be crushed is not.

Most ICT sponsors use various means to avoid paying tax on their employees and force them to work stupid hours yet are happy to lecture us on how hard they work?

I however have a lot of respect for Mr Tata he made it make a profit, he has made shedloads working within the lax laws surrounding inshoring.

[mudskipper]

The 73-year-old added that previously at JLR "the entire engineering group would be empty on Friday evening", but said things had improved.

"The new management team has put an end to that. They call meetings at 5 o'clock," he said.

Like most, I'm happy to stay on occasion when it's required. But regularly scheduling meetings at 5pm is just presenteeism. Probably explains why clientco's bobs all roll in at 11am.

[Churchill]

Yes Churchie but you are supposed to share them around not eat them all yourself

Thanks for the advice chubba!

[DodgyAgent]

There are loads of things Management can be doing when deadline/crunch time approaches. Being there , ordering the pizza shows solidarity and often helps.

Yes Churchie but you are supposed to share them around not eat them all yourself

[Churchill]

That is true, however I'm not sure them sticking around just to be there is that much use.

If the manager can leave people with the impression they'd be there if they were needed that would do. I don't want to make them suffer out of bitterness... that is a trait we do seem to have in England, wanting to share the misery around.

I'm not suggesting that they hover around, there should be plenty for them to get on with while the rest of the team does the needful.

[d000hg]

That is true, however I'm not sure them sticking around just to be there is that much use.

If the manager can leave people with the impression they'd be there if they were needed that would do. I don't want to make them suffer out of bitterness... that is a trait we do seem to have in England, wanting to share the misery around.

[Churchill]

What exactly is there for them to do? Stand around breathing down coders' necks? Easy to criticise them for going home but developers might prefer them out of the way.

If you read the article you will find that Mr Tata is having a go at managers. That is why I asked the question.

There are loads of things Management can be doing when deadline/crunch time approaches. Being there and making the coffee, ordering the pizza shows solidarity and often helps.

[d000hg]

And what are management doing during this stage of proceedings?

What exactly is there for them to do? Stand around breathing down coders' necks? Easy to criticise them for going home but developers might prefer them out of the way.

[Mich the Tester]

Perhaps we should look at some reasons for and against showing a good 'work ethic' and staying on late to get things finished.

For;
- good for you to have pride in what you do
- theoretically it helps 'career advancement'
- might help you earn a few quid more
- essential in a small business where it might also be rewarded
- good relations with colleagues

Against;
- less time to spend on family or voluntary work that's good for your own surroundings
- in publicly owned companies however hard you work you'll be sacked anyway when the quarterly figures come out, someone pulls the lever on the redundancy randomiser and your number comes up
- continually working extra encourages the people who've ****ed up the planning time and time again
- you might not reach retirement, so get the best out of everything life has to offer right now and every day. So don't waste the one life you have in an office making tuliploads of money for some anonymous shareholder (or indeed some self enamoured character like Mr Tata) in an office in Shanghai or Bangalore.

All this means that to motivate people in a modern, rich western country, you need a different approach to management than that which seems to work in a poor developing country where there are legions of people ready to work their arses off for a crumpled 50 rupee note.

The problem is bad management, usually flowing down from the top. Can you expect middle managers or workers to show a better attitude than the directors? Mr Tata should stop complaining and put his time and effort into building the kind of management that will work in Europe. It can be done and is done every day in Germany and the Scandinavian countries to great effect.

[Churchill]

Agreed however even in the UK it's hardly rare. In the games industry there is a culture of long hours and deadline crunches for developers.

And what are management doing during this stage of proceedings?

[d000hg]

However continually working until Midnight to get out of a crisis points to incompetent weak management.

Bad management all round if you need to resort to that on a regular basis.

Agreed however even in the UK it's hardly rare. In the games industry there is a culture of long hours and deadline crunches for developers.

[eek]

RTFA. Mr Tata doesn't agree.

But he fails to remember the hourly worker is on double time. The manager is on a fixed salary.

[Ignis Fatuus]

The British have a crap work ethic, especially when you work your way down the salary ladder. At the lowest end British workers are just ******* lazy and think they're better than everyone else.

RTFA. Mr Tata doesn't agree.

"If you are in a crisis, if it means working to midnight, you would do it.

"The worker in JLR seems to be willing to do that; the management is not," he said.

[Churchill]

You should read it.



There is a significant proportion f the UK population who have been denied work just because they live in the wrong area, Stupidly high property prices and rents have put paid to their chance of moving for work.



Bad management all round if you need to resort to that on a regular basis.

I concur. However, sometimes an all-nighter is required to ease the transition from bad to good.

I've read the article and reckon Mr Tata could have a point.

[Sysman]

I have not read the article and I assume he does have a point - up to a point.

You should read it.

There is a signifcant proportion of the UK population who have been bought up thinking that not working and living off benefits is an acceptable way of life. However that is not the majority.

There is a significant proportion f the UK population who have been denied work just because they live in the wrong area, Stupidly high property prices and rents have put paid to their chance of moving for work.

However continually working until Midnight to get out of a crisis points to incompetent weak management.

Bad management all round if you need to resort to that on a regular basis.