Reply to: Sense of Sun Readers

[minestrone]

After Hillsborough you have to have your head screwed on the wrong way round to read that paper.

[GillsMan]

Eh? Whats cheaper, a bullet to the head (or 2 if they've got a thick skull) or 20 years of being mollycoddled by a society which allows prisoners to have all the amenities that many normal folk don't(*)? I agree with the moral issues though...

(*) Been reading about that riot in the open prison where they didn't like the fact they were not allowed to have alcohol which is against the rules anyway. Where the hell did they get it from in the first place? Plus they had a new recreation wing which had 10 new pool tables, GTF, no wonder people commit crimes if this is the type of lifestyle you get when put away...

What's cheaper? It depends what price you put on an innocent man's life really. That's why you have to have appeals, death row, etc.

As to the open prison, afaik the folk that might be eligible for execution don't tend to go to an open prison (it does happen, but it's rare). Pool tables might be nice, but you've still not got any freedom so I'm not sure it's all tulips and giggles.

And as to the "life should mean life" thing, I might be wrong and am happy to be corrected if I am, but I believe life does mean life, it just doesn't necessarily mean life behind bars. I thought a life sentence meant X number of years in prison, then for the rest of your life you have to report to a parole officer. Unless a judge specifically orders a whole life sentence of course.

[thunderlizard]

life (means your whole life) in prison

Including, of course, the bit of your life that you had before you committed the crime. Requires a time machine of course, but if life is going to mean life, it's simple common sense.

[d000hg]

So we should remove the right to appeal? What number of false positives (killing innocent people) would you deem acceptable?

[darmstadt]

They can't sentence and immediately execute. You've got to be so damn sure you haven't made a mistake, they sit on the Row for years while appeals are done, etc - you are entitled to appeal and obviously unlike a prison sentence they can't let you go after they kill you, so they have to allow every avenue to be explored.

I was just reading Bill Bryson's article on this in the US system, and it's VERY expensive.

Yeah but thats the long and civilised way. Surely it should go:

commit crime
get caught
go before court
found guilty
taken outside
show in back of head

Cheap and cheerful. Now if you're not going to do this then drop the death sentence and have life (means your whole life) in prison, preferably a not very nice one.

[d000hg]

Eh? Whats cheaper, a bullet to the head (or 2 if they've got a thick skull) or 20 years of being mollycoddled by a society which allows prisoners to have all the amenities that many normal folk don't(*)?

They can't sentence and immediately execute. You've got to be so damn sure you haven't made a mistake, they sit on the Row for years while appeals are done, etc - you are entitled to appeal and obviously unlike a prison sentence they can't let you go after they kill you, so they have to allow every avenue to be explored.

I was just reading Bill Bryson's article on this in the US system, and it's VERY expensive.

[darmstadt]

So many problems with that, but I'll leave aside the moral issues of killing someone and just concentrate on the fact that it costs a LOT more to kill someone. Numerous appeals, solitary cells, 20 years on death row, etc, etc. But the Sun Readers couldn't see that or work it out for themselves.

Eh? Whats cheaper, a bullet to the head (or 2 if they've got a thick skull) or 20 years of being mollycoddled by a society which allows prisoners to have all the amenities that many normal folk don't(*)? I agree with the moral issues though...

(*) Been reading about that riot in the open prison where they didn't like the fact they were not allowed to have alcohol which is against the rules anyway. Where the hell did they get it from in the first place? Plus they had a new recreation wing which had 10 new pool tables, GTF, no wonder people commit crimes if this is the type of lifestyle you get when put away...

[d000hg]

99% of those who bothered to vote isn't so useful as a stat though, it's like TV votes on drug legalisation... druggies phone in 10 times but everyone else generally don't bother phoning in at all.

[GillsMan]

99% of Sun Readers who responded to a section called "You're The Jury" (which just tells you everything) voted in favour of the death penalty to stop wasting taxes on criminals.

So many problems with that, but I'll leave aside the moral issues of killing someone and just concentrate on the fact that it costs a LOT more to kill someone. Numerous appeals, solitary cells, 20 years on death row, etc, etc. But the Sun Readers couldn't see that or work it out for themselves.

[d000hg]

They do have a very strong democratic system, they just choose to vote for idiots and film stars rather than academics and economists.

I guess this is down to the lobbyists as mentioned earlier, shame.

I find the US system to be confusing and complicated, though maybe that's simply from lack of understanding and our system is just as confusing to other countries?

TL you know full well we don't have a democracy in the correct sense of the word. It's an elected oligarchy, we have the power to elect who we want thats all. Once in power they can change their mind, take the country to war, sign treaties with foreign powers.

I genuinely think this is better. Hire a software expert to write software and let them decide how to implement it. Hire a business analyst to tell you what your company should be doing differently. Etc.

The public are fickle and in reality, to fix things can take several years. Unless you delegate authority to rule to those you vote to rule, we'd be flip-flopping every time a new heart-stirring story involving a child came up in the news.

[xoggoth]

I think we have to be very wary of results of polls. How were the questions worded? What choices were offered? Was there any other text or preamble? It has been shown to greatly influence choice. What was the context and timing? Answers about punishment in the wake of a few atrocious murders or terror bombings probably alter once people have calmed down a bit. What did people have in mind? Is violence justified against the state? - does yes mean it's ok to bomb parties you don't agree with or simply that you would resist dictatorship?

[xoggoth]

Indeed. It is a lamentable apology for a democracy but then most are. There are no effective limits or sanctions on government at all other than such disagreements as exist within it at all levels. If they required us all to have compulsory DNA testing what could we do about it except protest/riot? You can do those things in dictatatorships.

A real democracy needs powerful sanctions against leaders. Blair and Heath should have ended up in prison for misleading the people.

[Gibbon]

That is quite reassuring, and I might have misunderstood the governmental system you're proposing (if, indeed, you were proposing such a thing). I'm sure the relatively silent majority is generally sensible, and now we've got a very focus group-led democracy, our government is probably even more aligned with them than it had been in the past.

(incidentally I don't know what to make of that Telegraph article on the capital punishment survey, as the bulk of the article contradicts the headline. The poll question that seems to have prompted the <50% headline is specifically about the death penalty for murdering a police officer: and this was January 2006, right in the middle of the Stockwell shooting inquiry. The latest YouGov, on a broader question, shows 51% support)

TL you know full well we don't have a democracy in the correct sense of the word. It's an elected oligarchy, we have the power to elect who we want thats all. Once in power they can change their mind, take the country to war, sign treaties with foreign powers.

[gingerjedi]

This is probably said by Americans who don't know how their system works (most of them).

They do have a very strong democratic system, they just choose to vote for idiots and film stars rather than academics and economists.

I guess this is down to the lobbyists as mentioned earlier, shame.

[BlasterBates]

If you want to see what depths the "Intelligentsia" have sunk to just read this:

Naked Bodies and a New Messiah: Green Groups Try to Sex Up Climate Change - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Incredible how an entire generation of seemingly intelligent people, can end up in mass delusion.

What is it they say, a bit of knowledge is dangerous.

Intelligentsia 0 - Joe Public Sun Reader 10