Reply to: Outsourcing to India

[Grinder]

All the off-shore IT guys I work with are "entry-level" staff. I reckon you could employ entry-level staff in the UK for the same money and get the same level of performance from them.

Low-cost sourcing will continue across the globe, but the market will mature as consultancies work out where effective savings can be made.

At the moment we go around the loop a dozen times to implement the simplest functionality, because good BAs and SysAns are undervalued. Average BAs are not producing the required level of documentation needed to write the code.

Historically, this has been good enough, because a canny developer figures out what they meant. But it doesn't suit entry-level developers, because they can't work it out.

[d000hg]

Oh dear me.

Being a coder hasn't just involved coding for - ooohh - the last 20 years. Unless you are a Bob. This is the weakness of yer average Bob.
I've worked with 'em and - IMO - they need direction. Constantly. To the point where you have to specify where error messages occur, when they occur (including obvious input errors by the user) and - oh yes - exactly what the messages should say.
Apart from that, they are fine.
Might as well do the bugger yourself.

Again - you need to apply more rigor to your hiring process. I hire a few contractors remotely which means I really couldn't care where they are as long as they know their stuff and speak OK English. Some of the best people have been from India and Eastern Europe BUT I interview them as individuals and would never trust any 3rd part to hire on my behalf, unless my company becomes big enough I hire my own hiring manager.

[Zippy]

He will be out of work in a few years. It makes me glum.

Oh no.

[CheeseSlice]

Less. But only because other countries will become more cost effective

I'm not sure it would happen quickly, but it would be interesting to see our call centres, software development and testing needs moved across to Mongolia or Khasakstan and what effect that would have on Indias economy

Similarly, if China actually caves in an unpegs its currency from its current low level against the dollar, Tescos, Asda, and half of the high street clothes stores may want to move clothing productions elsewhere.

[Son of Tay]

WHS. This is especially true amongst contractor developers I've worked with. They live and breathe development and they want nothing else in life. I remember one chap who was promoted to management level because the permie manager moved on. He relished the new job, but still couldn't stop coding away at his desk.

He will be out of work in a few years. It makes me glum.

[CheeseSlice]

I'd say the majority of good developers I met want precisely the opposite, they're in the field because they love coding, used to do it as a hobby, etc.

WHS. This is especially true amongst contractor developers I've worked with. They live and breathe development and they want nothing else in life. I remember one chap who was promoted to management level because the permie manager moved on. He relished the new job, but still couldn't stop coding away at his desk.

[Zippy]

A good coder who understands business is worth their weight in gold. Just a pity they are far and few apart.

The worst type of coder though, is those that technically know their stuff but have an arrogant disregard for the user. There are plenty of those around.

There are still a few dinosaurs about but not too many so I disagree with you. Those that are left (with that attitude) should be shot. Technical knowledge is worth nothing if you have you have no idea how to use it to build a functional system.

[MarillionFan]

Oh dear me.

Being a coder hasn't just involved coding for - ooohh - the last 20 years. Unless you are a Bob. This is the weakness of yer average Bob.
I've worked with 'em and - IMO - they need direction. Constantly. To the point where you have to specify where error messages occur, when they occur (including obvious input errors by the user) and - oh yes - exactly what the messages should say.
Apart from that, they are fine.
Might as well do the bugger yourself.

A good coder who understands business is worth their weight in gold. Just a pity they are far and few apart.

The worst type of coder though, is those that technically know their stuff but have an arrogant disregard for the user. There are plenty of those around.

[Alf W]

Indian businessman Ratan Tata and the boss of Sony, Sir Howard Stringer are the latest names to join the Prime Minister's advisory group of industry leaders, Sky sources have revealed.

Earlier this month Sky's City editor Mark Kleinman revealed that a Business Advisory Group is being established by David Cameron.

Anyone still think outsourcing to India is going to reduce in any way?

[Zippy]

Oh dear me.

Being a coder hasn't just involved coding for - ooohh - the last 20 years. Unless you are a Bob. This is the weakness of yer average Bob.
I've worked with 'em and - IMO - they need direction. Constantly. To the point where you have to specify where error messages occur, when they occur (including obvious input errors by the user) and - oh yes - exactly what the messages should say.
Apart from that, they are fine.
Might as well do the bugger yourself.

[MarillionFan]

You are setting great store by it MF, but I have to say I think you are being overly optimistic about just how far "playing the spoons" is going to get you in post-apocalyptic Britain.

YouTube - Self Defense Techniques : Self defense video: situational weapons

You know tulip!

[shaunbhoy]

Anyway, I'm building a bunker in my garden for when that massive sunbursts happens in a few years and wipes out all the computers. Then we'll see who has skills!

You are setting great store by it MF, but I have to say I think you are being overly optimistic about just how far "playing the spoons" is going to get you in post-apocalyptic Britain.

[MarillionFan]

If you think about it 20 years ago IT was much smaller, 30 years ago even more so. There would be less people starting out in IT 20 years ago than there are these days, hence distorting the statistics even if they were all still programming they'd still be a minority.

Exactly!

No way can old fuddies compete with the masses coming through.

Anyway, I'm building a bunker in my garden for when that massive sunbursts happens in a few years and wipes out all the computers. Then we'll see who has skills!

[d000hg]

If you think about it 20 years ago IT was much smaller, 30 years ago even more so. There would be less people starting out in IT 20 years ago than there are these days, hence distorting the statistics even if they were all still programming they'd still be a minority.

[MarillionFan]

I'd say the majority of good developers I met want precisely the opposite, they're in the field because they love coding, used to do it as a hobby, etc.

It's an age thing. In general you do not see old programmers! Yes there are contractors on CUK who buck that trend, but programming is a young mans game. Technology is constantly changing. It is difficult for contractors & permies in employment to keep on updating their skills & keep up with the latest changes. As those youngsters get older, they get married, have kids. You don't have the luxury or the environment to stay up all night dabbling and learning. It's just the way it is.

If my the time you haven't started to move up the ladder or out of programming by the time you hit your forties then you're going to find it more and more difficult. Anyone 40+, benched for any period of time who says they're a programmer is deluded. It means time has passed you by and you didn't evolve.

IMO.