Reply to: All your medical records are belong to us

[moorfield]

I disagree. More police on the streets correlates directly to less crime, ergo prevention.

Sounds dangerously Liberal Democrat to me that does.

[Churchill]

and that's why we are known as a home-owning country?

Oi SAS, even with all his degrees Minestrone doesn't know what a tenet is.

[sasguru]

'innocent until proven guilty' has never been a central tenant of british justice...

and that's why we are known as a home-owning country?

[d000hg]

With all the cockups in the last year or two with sensitive data being left lying about on trains, etc, it's hard to see outsourcing this data could be much worse.

[Churchill]

I disagree. More police on the streets correlates directly to less crime, ergo prevention. Police now focus on statistics, paperwork and detection.

The police are there to enforce the law which in turn can reduce crime.

I do hope you are not suggesting that politicians lie do you?

Police != PCSO
We have less "Police" on the streets but more PCSO - arguably a deterrent but not the real thing imo.

[MarillionFan]

The police exist to enforce the law, not prevent crimes from happening - arguably that is the state's objective.

I disagree. More police on the streets correlates directly to less crime, ergo prevention. Police now focus on statistics, paperwork and detection.

The police are there to enforce the law which in turn can reduce crime.

I do hope you are not suggesting that politicians lie do you?

[xoggoth]

The "beyond all reasonable doubt thing" is certainly a myth. In most cases it's more of a balance of probability.

Some of the legal arguments one sees quoted in papers should not be permitted in my view, they aren't arguing a rational case, they are about appealing to the jury's emotions.

[Gonzo]

'innocent until proven guilty' has never been a central tenant of british justice, there are whole prisons dedicated to holding people before the are ever proven of anything. If people were really bothered about that then they would be demanding that people arrested of rape and murder are set free until they are tried (yes, like everyone is doing that).

This argument is so false I don't know where to start.

Bail is always given unless there are strong reasons not to, such as for very serious offences, they have previous for committing similar offences, they are likely to interfere with witnesses or they are likely to disappear.

So yes, people charged with murder or rape will find themselves on remand but that doesn't mean 'innocent until proven guilty' is not a fundamental part of british justice. Even then, being on remand is very different from serving a sentence.

[threaded]

I worked there are the time, believe me, there is a whole load of tulip going on that you will never hear about with that case. Of course you are not going to hear it from me but she is certainly very very far from the innocent victim she likes to claim she is it is more than just a mistaken print case.

Oh I understand that, it is part of the point I'm making: a non-expert, if shown the fingerprints can immediately see they don't match, but because it was all flowered up with scientific mumbo-jumbo a 'mistake' was made. How much easier is it to make similar 'mistakes' with DNA. Especially when they want to 'get' the person.

[moorfield]

My counter argument is, well done, but shouldn't the police prevent crimes from happening in the first place.

The police exist to enforce the law, not prevent crimes from happening - arguably that is the state's objective.

[minestrone]

It's lazy policing as far as I'm concerned. Prevention is harder than detection using databases.

And DNA databases for all are undermining the 'innocent until proven guilty' concept that British justice is supposed to hold dear.

'innocent until proven guilty' has never been a central tenant of british justice, there are whole prisons dedicated to holding people before the are ever proven of anything. If people were really bothered about that then they would be demanding that people arrested of rape and murder are set free until they are tried (yes, like everyone is doing that).

And what exactly is lazy policing? as opposed to what? You might be in danger of sounding like a keyboard expert on a subject you have never had any experience of.

[minestrone]

And before anyone says it won't happen, think on the case of that Policewoman in Scotland, that was with fingerprints.

I worked there are the time, believe me, there is a whole load of tulip going on that you will never hear about with that case. Of course you are not going to hear it from me but she is certainly very very far from the innocent victim she likes to claim she is it is more than just a mistaken print case.

[fullyautomatix]

In the US the docs speak into a microphone and these voice records are sent to India to be transcribed into digital documents. This has been going on for a good 8-10 years now. Cheap clerical type work will be eventually outsourced regardless of the sensitiveness of the data.

[SueEllen]

My neighbour works in CID. He thinks the national database is the greatest invention ever! He said to me, it's detected and solved so many crimes it's unreal.

My counter argument is, well done, but shouldn't the police prevent crimes from happening in the first place.

He then said to me how would you feel if someone raped your daughter and we had had their DNA but deleted it!

Most women are raped by someone they know and the issue brought before the court is consent.

So that argument doesn't wash with me.

Likewise most people are murdered by someone they know normally a relation.

[cojak]

My neighbour works in CID. He thinks the national database is the greatest invention ever! He said to me, it's detected and solved so many crimes it's unreal.

My counter argument is, well done, but shouldn't the police prevent crimes from happening in the first place.

He then said to me how would you feel if someone raped your daughter and we had had their DNA but deleted it! Again I replied prevention, plus if it did happen you be better tasked to stop me from murdering them. I always counter the argument by asking the question what would Someone like Hitler do with such a database.

The last weak argument thrown up is 'well if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear'!!! Weak weak weak

I fear for the world when technology changes and someone 'really' uses that database!!!

It's lazy policing as far as I'm concerned. Prevention is harder than detection using databases.

And DNA databases for all are undermining the 'innocent until proven guilty' concept that British justice is supposed to hold dear.