Reply to: Strewth, there's an app for that

[vetran]

thinking about this in odd moments during the day, it's understandable and perhaps even inevitable that sexual assault accusations will have low conviction rates. When something happens in private there are no witnesses so we rely on evidence. Evidence of consent is very tricky, I have no idea of stats but presume violent rape is a small minority and unless it's done quickly, proof of having sex is hard to get.

Compare all this to theft... The item can be found in someone else's possession. Or assault... You have wounds.

If you don't record the act it seems it's always going to be the case. You don't convict for something so serious without being certain, you probably don't get to trial without a reasonable chance of conviction.

As a judge or juror you could sit through 100 cases knowing that statistically many of them are rape, and believing the victim, but unable to convict nonetheless unless the defendant is dumb enough to admit 'yeah but you can't say stop once we've started'

Pretty awful, and pretty hard to see a way to change it

Note 2-6% are fraudulent claims so claiming rape where it is proven the the accuser lied about the offence happening.

~50% of those that go to court (which in the UK is 1.5% prosecution less than the fraudulent ones) are unproven or innocent of rape on the available facts . It is entirely possible the accuser has a different opinion about the events than the defendant, ask any expert, witnesses rarely fully agree at any crime scene.

My hope is that the app can accentuate the seriousness of the consent and divide between that which happens without consent at all and that which happens when the consent changes.

The situations I have heard frequently the expectations of both parties are different and their attitudes to sex are different. Stopping them and asking for recorded consent might provide a barrier at which they align.

I personally have been in situations where we were pretty intimate but she didn't want to go further. I was keen to do so but stopped as requested, if you added lots of alcohol or serious misogyny and some people may not have. Note in all but one case (an almost one night stand) we happily went much further later in the relationship).

I imagine consent would be removed pretty quickly if you said during sex "Your sister is better at that" while you ejaculated. In the current situation she could claim rape and there would likely be no conviction unless he continued after saying that.

[d000hg]

Science suggests 2-6% of all accusations are fraudulent this is consistent with Europe see link in previous post.

thinking about this in odd moments during the day, it's understandable and perhaps even inevitable that sexual assault accusations will have low conviction rates. When something happens in private there are no witnesses so we rely on evidence. Evidence of consent is very tricky, I have no idea of stats but presume violent rape is a small minority and unless it's done quickly, proof of having sex is hard to get.

Compare all this to theft... The item can be found in someone else's possession. Or assault... You have wounds.

If you don't record the act it seems it's always going to be the case. You don't convict for something so serious without being certain, you probably don't get to trial without a reasonable chance of conviction.

As a judge or juror you could sit through 100 cases knowing that statistically many of them are rape, and believing the victim, but unable to convict nonetheless unless the defendant is dumb enough to admit 'yeah but you can't say stop once we've started'

Pretty awful, and pretty hard to see a way to change it

[vetran]

A lawyer should be present during sex who will prepare a sex contract.

Were you a medieval king that is pretty much what you got on your wedding night. The sheets would be displayed in the morning hopefully with blood on them to prove the queens hymen had broken.

[Andy2]

A lawyer should be present during sex who will prepare a sex contract.

[vetran]

On the 98.5% thing, what % of accusations do you think are genuine? Or rather would you imagine false accusations are in line with other crimes - can we do a like-for-like comparison of accusations Vs trial Vs guilty verdicts?

Not asking with an agenda, just curious.

Science suggests 2-6% of all accusations are fraudulent this is consistent with Europe see link in previous post.

I suspect that many accusations are different sides of the same experience and may not be rape per se but poor communication due to intoxication and different expectations.

Frequently you deal with people who just don't realise they have done something to upset another or even that they are upset, especially if they don't know them or are under the influence.

But all should be believed, investigated and prosecuted if there is a reasonable chance of success. I suspect adjusting the actual crime they are charged with would increase the chances of conviction. I would prefer people were charged and actually convicted of a lesser crime if the intent was not there.

As so few result in prosecution I would like to anonymity (publicly) for the accused. Releasing the persons identity would require a court order. The Police can maintain a record and watch for patterns.

Intent in guilt is important. Putting them all in the same bucket makes it far more difficult to prosecute the worst ones.

Imagine someone cuts you up on the road and you assume it is intentional yet when you calm down you realise she just didn't see you. Now she may have cut you up but its not really a crime you can prosecute.

[d000hg]

On the 98.5% thing, what % of accusations do you think are genuine? Or rather would you imagine false accusations are in line with other crimes - can we do a like-for-like comparison of accusations Vs trial Vs guilty verdicts?

Not asking with an agenda, just curious.

[vetran]

TL; DR

how do we fix it?

blather on incessantly on an anonymous internet forum???
see? - easy!
hth[/QUOTE]

I actually tend to organise my thoughts here. I like the idea for the reasons mentioned. Sometimes people post a flaw I didn't think of so I change my mind.

[BR14]

TL; DR

how do we fix it?[/QUOTE]

blather on incessantly on an anonymous internet forum???
see? - easy!
hth

[vetran]

A recorded consent would stand against someone who claims they later changed their mind though surely?
This whole consent thing is important but more as an education thing, not as something you can try to police - you teach people the importance of consent but you don't require them to fill in paperwork.

It should lead to more convictions, fewer rapes or both.

I agree education is important for both sides, sex is a shared experience with no guarantee that both sides have the same experience.

Men are taught to sow their seed and ignore bad experiences then denigrate their lover as rubbish

Women are taught they are bestowing a precious gift that any lover it who receives it should be massively grateful for but also that promiscuity is wrong and that her friends and family will think less of her for being a slut. These rather ancient attitudes are not conducive to decent relationships. Sex is an activity that should be based on the agreement and enthusiasm of two parties and a decent amount of trust.

Recorded consent would count as a start of an agreement if you read two of the links I supplied rape was claimed despite the court deciding prior consent had been given and consent was subsequently removed in at least one case without the male even being aware. Is it rape if you don't know? If you end the agreement then its no longer valid but both parties must be aware the agreement has ended.

It would mean it is much easier to prosecute those that don't get consent. You only need to prove the act happened and consent didn't , that is just DNA or similar. The male would want to get consent to protect himself, the female would want to stop and think carefully.

If you are sober enough to consent you are sober enough to have sex. If you obviously aren't then you didn't consent - the jury can watch the video.

If getting recorded consent leads to fewer inadvisable hookups then that is hardly a bad thing.

If consent is subsequently removed and the partner made aware then a slightly different offence can be created that takes this into account. Conviction on a lower charge of say "sex without valid consent" is more likely and the lower offence would only be available if recorded consent had been obtained.

This takes the sting out of changing your mind as it may well be a community service or education sentence with a risk assessment without a sex offence register entry. Obviously repeat or violent offenders would be treated far more harshly and may have the charge set as rape instead.

Now this probably won't work in long term relationships but there will probably be patterns that show abusive sex probably happened.


I'm open to any suggestion that works. Currently 98.5 accusations do not result in prosecution, 99+ % do not result in conviction.


Admittedly the bar is pretty low:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9480706.html

Only 7.1 per cent of the offences recorded by police resulted in a charge or summons in 2019, down 8.3 per cent – 47,300 offences – on the previous year.

but 1.5% of prosecutions for rape is much lower than general crime. I would much prefer that 7.1% of rape allegations resulted in prosecution and the majority of the guilty get some sort of sentence so at least they are in the system and watched. If many get education that is better than nothing.

But it gets worse.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...npunished.html

Just one in SIX women report sex assaults: Shocking toll shows majority of attacks go unpunished because victims fear they won't be believed or helped

• Figures show more than one in 20 women have been raped since they were 16
• More than 700,000 adults were victims of sexual assault in year to March 2020
• The disclosures come amid a national conversation around women’s safety

5% of females have been raped since they were 16.

However there are more false accusations overall than the number of accusations that go to court.

2-6% of allegations are false.

http://www.open.ac.uk/research/news/...exual-violence



how do we fix it?

[d000hg]

A recorded consent would stand against someone who claims they later changed their mind though surely?
This whole consent thing is important but more as an education thing, not as something you can try to police - you teach people the importance of consent but you don't require them to fill in paperwork.

[vetran]

The daft idea wouldn't work anyway, because at no stage is consent irrevocable.

A guy could still be convicted for forcibly persisting if consent was withdrawn, um, during progress.

Think of a better one, the conviction rates are pitifully low if there is any way to increase them without locking up innocent people I would be interested.

As I said make removal of consent a different situation so it is easier to prosecute. Currently everything is rape and that is a high bar to reach, a man that has initially has consent but it is removed during has a similar outcome to one that does not have consent.

I posted a number of cases where rape was not committed but the accusation was made

[xoggoth]

Or maybe ladies could keep a pet Candiru fish up their fanny.

[OwlHoot]

.. Get recorded consent first seems the best idea. ..

The daft idea wouldn't work anyway, because at no stage is consent irrevocable.

A guy could still be convicted for forcibly persisting if consent was withdrawn, um, during progress.

[xoggoth]

Bring back chastity belts with high tech unlock codes.

[vetran]

Next thing you know they'll be demanding people leave their mobbys propped up on the bedside table filming it too, so there can be no possible doubt.

What could possibly go wrong with _that_ ?

We can call it "Bang her Horror"?

Get recorded consent first seems the best idea.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-34698265

Around nine hours after saying goodbye to a woman he had just had sex with, Kayode Modupe-Ojo's life changed forever.

The police knocked on his door to arrest him on suspicion of rape.

The case went to trial last year and he eventually he was cleared.

Now he struggles to trust any woman.

He says it's totally changed his attitude towards dating.

He gets them to record their name and their consent on his phone before sex.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020...iminal-offence

Anyone who films a partner during sex without their consent is committing the criminal offence of voyeurism, the court of appeal has ruled in a case that may affect the Crown Prosecution Service’s apparent reluctance to bring charges.

The ruling by three judges came at the end of an unsuccessful appeal by a man convicted of filming himself having sex with prostitutes. His lawyers argued that the voyeurism law allowed him to do so since even a bedroom is not a private place if he was there legitimately.

and that may escalate nicely.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9025216.html

A British woman told police she lodged a report that she was gang raped after men filmed her having sex with other members of their group without her consent to do so, reports in Cyprus claim.

The 19-year-old was arrested on Sunday after police said she withdrew an accusation that 12 Israelis raped her in a hotel room in the holiday resort of Ayia Napa in mid-July.

it