Reply to: Mandelslime is back

[AtW]

There is plenty Starmer can talk about.

Cutting taxes
Cutting taxes
Cutting taxes

FTFY

[Scoobos]

This just isn't what I'm seeing , I think its incredible that some people think that no alternatives were given, because they were.

"you cannot ease lockdown without a plan and without a test and trace function in place, can you guarantee that will be in place".

It will be world beating and there by June 1st, dont you worry.

That's one prime example, but there are literally tens of them. But if we are just going to deny them and use the old "captain hindsight" argument then all is lost.

Hindsight was used as a conservative excuse in April - this was 3 clear months after the WHO called a public health emergency of international concern (30th Jan) and 2 weeks and 2 months after the famous - BUILD TESTING CAPACITY - test test test.

We did neither, then said that anyone who criticised the decision makers, was doing so under the illusion of hindsight.

If anyone truly believes that British intelligence services didn't know full well what Covid-19 was and that it was coming , by Jan 30th, they are kidding themselves.

The 3rd Feb Greenwich PM speech outlines his plan, and it's what he enacted, until we started looking at 100k+ deaths.

Christmas, knowing we had a variant almost half as contagious, was utter stupidity. Starmer said we couldn't do it, Boris called it "inhumane" - despite cancelling many other religious gatherings.

I suppose this just shows how varied and interesting human behaviour is, when we can all so passionately see completely conflicting views.

[vetran]

I don't really see why that's a problem. There should be more collaboration between the parties with a good flow of ideas and viewpoints rationally discussed.

Saying, "your plan is crap and I've got a better one but I'm not sharing it with you cos you'll just nick it and claim it as your own" is childish and immature. If that's the reason why Labour haven't come up with anything constructive to add then they're simply not fit to run the country.

Hear hear!

MO Im not copying but amplifying your list. The current Labour party have shown themselves to be incompetent, at least B'ruin and B'liar between invading countries and exploiting cheap labour have actually mentioned where the Tories are going wrong.

[ladymuck]

The reason the opposition (of any colours) have stopped giving their own solutions is because the party in power nicks them.

I don't really see why that's a problem. There should be more collaboration between the parties with a good flow of ideas and viewpoints rationally discussed.

Saying, "your plan is crap and I've got a better one but I'm not sharing it with you cos you'll just nick it and claim it as your own" is childish and immature. If that's the reason why Labour haven't come up with anything constructive to add then they're simply not fit to run the country.

[malvolio]

The reason the opposition (of any colours) have stopped giving their own solutions is because the party in power nicks them.

And why is that a problem exactly? Parliament is there to govern the country in an emergency, not take their ball home if the big boys don't play properly.

[malvolio]

There is plenty Starmer can talk about.

Test and not trace.
Hospital acquired infections.
Care homes ravaged by hospital acquired infections.
Airports not being closed.
Schools being opened then closed.
Online learning.
Furlough without retraining.

etc. There are so many open goals they may as well have shot the goalkeeper!

Yeah yeah yeah - and we all know about them and they were covered in the list of things I wrote about if you care to look properly.

But given most (not all, admittedly) of these are reactive as the pandemic has evolved, it's a bit pointless railing about them now. Leave that to the public enquiry that will chew up several millions for the lawyers and not come to any useful conclusions.

Of course, everybody is ignoring PHE's input, which was to cock up their own anti-pandemic planning, which is why we couldn't react when it all went tits up in February. They were in charge of PPE provision and all the other care-based stuff after all. Basically HMG had to re-invent something that should been written down and tested but was neither.

[vetran]

There is plenty Starmer can talk about.

Test and not trace.
Hospital acquired infections.
Care homes ravaged by hospital acquired infections.
Airports not being closed.
Schools being opened then closed.
Online learning.
Furlough without retraining.

etc. There are so many open goals they may as well have shot the goalkeeper!

[SueEllen]

I have been keeping up. As far as I can tell:

Starmer has agreed with every HMG action in the House voting, criticised those actions in PMQs and not offered any alternative solutions. OK, not his job perhaps, but criticism for the sake of it is not helping anyone.

You clearly haven't as you would be aware the Covid measures are not completely new laws but statutory instruments. This means the bills can't be amended. If all the opposition parties including Labour voted against them then would have no legally enforceable Covid measures. Then we would really be like Brazil and the US.

[SueEllen]

Surely that is what an opposition is supposed to provide alternative ideas to the government, this then shows they are a good candidate to rule.

Unless they have most of the media on side then what they suggest e.g. price caps for gas and electricity are spun as being so socialist it harms their electoral chances.

[vetran]

The reason the opposition (of any colours) have stopped giving their own solutions is because the party in power nicks them.

Surely that is what an opposition is supposed to provide alternative ideas to the government, this then shows they are a good candidate to rule.

[vetran]

Why not? I've heard a lot of people say this, but never heard any of the reasoning behind it.

well as up to 40% of infections happened in hospital

Stopping Covid spreading in hospitals could have made 'substantial reduction in first wave deaths' | Daily Mail Online

Up to 40% of hospitalised Covid patients in first wave - around 36,000 people - caught it AFTER being admitted: SAGE paper claims stopping spread in NHS trusts could have made a 'substantial' reduction in deaths

• Researchers said in-hospital spread prolonged the first wave by 'several weeks' by leaking virus to community
• NHS struggles to contain the virus, which spreads silently without symptoms, especially when wards are busy
• Some caught the virus then developed symptoms after discharge and returned to hospital, they said
• Thousands of deaths could have been prevented if in-hospital transmission was stopped completely

The Ongoing Problem of UK Hospital Acquired Infections - The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine

Probable Hospital Acquired infections in England remain persistently high: currently, 17.6% of COVID-19 infections fit the NHS England definition of probable healthcare-associated infections (HCAIs). These rates have been as high as 25% in the North West and continue to climb in the North East and Yorkshire.

[SueEllen]

The reason the opposition (of any colours) have stopped giving their own solutions is because the party in power nicks them.

[SueEllen]

Why not? I've heard a lot of people say this, but never heard any of the reasoning behind it.

The excuse I heard given is because we rely on imports so can't stop people entering because of those.

I know other countries that have closed their borders also rely on imports so have exceptions for staff involved in importing goods.

[mattster]

but we simply can't do a NZ or Oz and close the doors

Why not? I've heard a lot of people say this, but never heard any of the reasoning behind it.

[malvolio]

I don't think that's fair to be honest.

I'm not a staunch supporter of any party (though I have to admit to never having voted Conservative).

They didn't have to present alternative ideas, as he was supporting the fact that we follow WHO advice and also, for contact tracing, that we used the open source model.

He also stated that the 2m distance and covid safe workspaces needed to be enforced and documented, with clear guidance.

If you've looked at Gov.uk and guidance to employers for Covid-19 , you'll quickly see that its a farce .

We've spent months of deaths and illness and lockdown because the government has been trying to outthink the standard global response.

Starmer has been very clear - don't open schools until they are covid safe workspaces (they STILL aren't) - don't end the first lockdown without test trace isolate in place (the horse has well and truly bolted there , for the THIRD time, if you count Jan 30th as the starting point). They are alternative solutions.

We are outliers like Brazil, USA and SA - and our variant growth and fatality ratio seems to prove this.

I have been keeping up. As far as I can tell:

Starmer has agreed with every HMG action in the House voting, criticised those actions in PMQs and not offered any alternative solutions. OK, not his job perhaps, but criticism for the sake of it is not helping anyone.

Sturgeon has enacted all UK decisions one day early, basically trying to make it look like she is leading the fight. Reality is somewhat different.

Wales and their Labour administration has over-reacted and imposed conditions that make a degree of sense in a crowded city like Cardiff or Swansea but are meaningless over the 80% of the country that are still heavily rural. Their localised health service is also in no real fit state to react as well as the rest of the UK.

Yes our rates are bad, and worse than other countries but we simply can't do a NZ or Oz and close the doors, we have a population with generally poor health and obesity levels, with an average age well above many other countries and a lot of elderly people in care homes. There are reasons for our poor figures and many (but not all!) of them are not down to poor decision making.

So what we don't need is Starmer et al playing politics just because they are the Opposition or think they are leaders of their bit of the UK. Shut up or put up should be the mantra and if there are better ideas on anything let's hear them.