Reply to: Please sign petition

[Paddy]

Who?

People are arguing for the government to regulate employers a bit more than they already do so they stop exploiting people. If they don't then we, the tax payers, are paying the restaurant to have workers. A lot of people are against universal credit (and tax credits) for the same reason.

Well said!

[SueEllen]

Everyone's situation is different. I'm not british I'm an immigrant and don't want to get too in depth into my personal circumstances but just to say I haven't done any of those things. I paid foreign tuition in the uk and haven't used the nhs.

I am pro subsidized/free university regardless. But that doesn't mean socialism. Capitalism doesn't mean no government. Obviously you need government to fund roads, education, basic medical care, etc. But government should be in the business of regulating (only where necessary) and subsidising/funding rather than running businesses. There is definitely a conversation about how much taxes do you take and what do you use them for, but capitalism vs socialism, communism is about ownership of production rather than funding. You can fund roads, education, healthcare in capitalism.

Its crazy this is literally a forum for contractors and you have people arguing for socialism. Insane, you should shut down your business and go work for the nhs if you don't believe in private ownership.

Who?

People are arguing for the government to regulate employers a bit more than they already do so they stop exploiting people. If they don't then we, the tax payers, are paying the restaurant to have workers. A lot of people are against universal credit (and tax credits) for the same reason.

[ladymuck]

Who's crazy?

I don't think anyone is advocating pure socialism.

Personally, I feel there is an optimal blend of capitalism and socialism that will bring the best for the majority. There will always be a gap that someone will slip through and the PTBs need to be able to recognise and support those without creating a myriad of special cases.

[jayn200]

The UK doesn't have proper capitalism otherwise you wouldn't have been able to afford to go to university even as a mature student as university fees are capped for UK residents.

Also you have the priviledge of healthcare which is free at the point of use which means your mother could afford to give birth to you with adequate medical care and you have had vaccinations plus other things as a child paid by tax payers of this country. You also had the priviledge of free education up to 19. In your capitalised utopia you would have none of this.

So yes you may have used the capitalised structures of this country to enable you to get to agood standard of living as an adult but you also relied on the social and liberal policies that got you to adulthood in the first place.

Everyone's situation is different. I'm not british I'm an immigrant and don't want to get too in depth into my personal circumstances but just to say I haven't done any of those things. I paid foreign tuition in the uk and haven't used the nhs.

I am pro subsidized/free university regardless. But that doesn't mean socialism. Capitalism doesn't mean no government. Obviously you need government to fund roads, education, basic medical care, etc. But government should be in the business of regulating (only where necessary) and subsidising/funding rather than running businesses. There is definitely a conversation about how much taxes do you take and what do you use them for, but capitalism vs socialism, communism is about ownership of production rather than funding. You can fund roads, education, healthcare in capitalism.

Its crazy this is literally a forum for contractors and you have people arguing for socialism. Insane, you should shut down your business and go work for the nhs if you don't believe in private ownership.

[eek]

Was she told that she wouldn't be paid for her shift? If so, she volunteered, YOU MUPPET!

That's the point of the petition - if someone is asked to work they should be paid for that work... If there were asked to work alongside people who were being paid then they should be paid.

If someone volunteers to work then they don't need to be paid....

It's really very simple but clearly beyond your level of understanding...

[Paddy]

Was she told that she wouldn't be paid for her shift? If so, she volunteered, YOU MUPPET!

That is irrelevant. If a person volunteers to do unpaid work eg charity shop, they do it for the love of it.

If a person does an unpaid shift as a trail with a view to paid work; that is under duress. ie. Too many people going after one job and the employer taking pecuniary advantage. If she took it to court, I am sure she would win damages.

PS You're as ignorant as fertilizer.

[Zigenare]

He VOLUNTEERED you utter muppet. Volunteering is a great thing to do if you are able to, and happens quite a lot in many fields. Volunteering at a skilled trade is not the same as waitressing for free. I doubt she wanted to spend time learning the trade to keep her busy, probably was more interested in buying food.

Was she told that she wouldn't be paid for her shift? If so, she volunteered, YOU MUPPET!

[BR14]

In all my (30) years of working I've never been paid overtime. Some companies offer TOIL, but this is rarely taken. It's been the 'modern' way since the early 90's as far as I have experienced if you work in an office.

In all my (45+) years, i've Always been paid overtime.
otherwise i didn't do any.

[SueEllen]

I don't know, haven't looked a lot at denmark. Norway has a large percentage of gdp from natural resources and a homogeneous population. These types of countries tend to lend themselves better to far left ideology as they have lots of wealth that is inherent to the land and a homogeneous population that has no social issues from sharing that wealth. All of the wealth in the UK is not inherent to the land there is very little raw material exports. The wealth is generated by capitalism with a large share of that being services. Get rid of that economic structure and tell everyone in the UK they have to share what they produce equally and production will become less efficient.

I don't really know anything about denmark so can't comment.

Everything good in my life has come via capitalism. My ability to shift from very very poor background to a strong middle class position I owe to capitalism. I understand capitalism doesn't benefit those who aren't able to produce anything of worth and that's unfortunate but I am still entitled to my opinion based off my experience.

Anyway this has devolved into a different conversation than what the topic is. I do think it's crap to not get paid for working an unskilled job and do think it should be illegal.

The UK doesn't have proper capitalism otherwise you wouldn't have been able to afford to go to university even as a mature student as university fees are capped for UK residents.

Also you have the priviledge of healthcare which is free at the point of use which means your mother could afford to give birth to you with adequate medical care and you have had vaccinations plus other things as a child paid by tax payers of this country. You also had the priviledge of free education up to 19. In your capitalised utopia you would have none of this.

So yes you may have used the capitalised structures of this country to enable you to get to agood standard of living as an adult but you also relied on the social and liberal policies that got you to adulthood in the first place.

[jayn200]

Many people from poor backgrounds are very gifted and useful to society. Conversely, there are many rich kids (some who go to Eton) who are still as thick as **** after education but they are put in a position of authority and end up ****ing the country up.

The socialist ideology has worked and is still working fine in Denmark and Norway. What the UK has in not capitatim because the toffs companies are partially state funded to keep them afloat. The UK has fascism in its true definition where private companies control government policy.

I don't know, haven't looked a lot at denmark. Norway has a large percentage of gdp from natural resources and a homogeneous population. These types of countries tend to lend themselves better to far left ideology as they have lots of wealth that is inherent to the land and a homogeneous population that has no social issues from sharing that wealth. All of the wealth in the UK is not inherent to the land there is very little raw material exports. The wealth is generated by capitalism with a large share of that being services. Get rid of that economic structure and tell everyone in the UK they have to share what they produce equally and production will become less efficient.

I don't really know anything about denmark so can't comment.

Everything good in my life has come via capitalism. My ability to shift from very very poor background to a strong middle class position I owe to capitalism. I understand capitalism doesn't benefit those who aren't able to produce anything of worth and that's unfortunate but I am still entitled to my opinion based off my experience.

Anyway this has devolved into a different conversation than what the topic is. I do think it's crap to not get paid for working an unskilled job and do think it should be illegal.

[Paddy]

Why does it matter if some people are left behind? That's socialist/communist type ideology that we have to hold society back to the weakest links, it just limits production and it's bad for everyone.

What kind of background do you come from? I am sure I was raised poorer than most on this forum. I couldn't afford to attend uni (ended up attending part time at 25 to get my degree while working full time). I never would have been able to do an unpaid internship but I still support them. They are still good for society. The assault on the middle class is ridiculous and impacts people from poor backgrounds too, they need to be able to make it to the middle class and need to be able to stay there when they get there.

If you can't afford to do an unpaid internship then you just need to figure out a different pathway. Just like I couldn't afford to not work and attend uni so I found a different pathway, it doesn't mean we should get rid of universities because some poor people can't afford them.

Many people from poor backgrounds are very gifted and useful to society. Conversely, there are many rich kids (some who go to Eton) who are still as thick as **** after education but they are put in a position of authority and end up ****ing the country up.

The socialist ideology has worked and is still working fine in Denmark and Norway. What the UK has in not capitatim because the toffs companies are partially state funded to keep them afloat. The UK has fascism in its true definition where private companies control government policy.

[Whorty]

Working for BAE many years ago.. before I got overtime paid I had to work 8 hour beyond my 37. Additional pay was paid from hour 45.

Still pi$$es me off.

Soon discovered a lot of UK private companies do this.

In all my (30) years of working I've never been paid overtime. Some companies offer TOIL, but this is rarely taken. It's been the 'modern' way since the early 90's as far as I have experienced if you work in an office.

[ladymuck]

Why does it matter if some people are left behind? That's socialist/communist type ideology that we have to hold society back to the weakest links, it just limits production and it's bad for everyone.

What kind of background do you come from? I am sure I was raised poorer than most on this forum. I couldn't afford to attend uni (ended up attending part time at 25 to get my degree while working full time). I never would have been able to do an unpaid internship but I still support them. They are still good for society. The assault on the middle class is ridiculous and impacts people from poor backgrounds too, they need to be able to make it to the middle class and need to be able to stay there when they get there.

If you can't afford to do an unpaid internship then you just need to figure out a different pathway. Just like I couldn't afford to not work and attend uni so I found a different pathway, it doesn't mean we should get rid of universities because some poor people can't afford them.

People will always be left behind, of course they will. All I'm saying is that there ought to be a balance of opportunity so that, if you have the capability, your income shouldn't stop you from having a chance.

My parents are working class. They scrimped and saved to keep a roof over our heads and had beans on toast for Sunday lunch while raising my brother and I because that's all they could afford at that time. I was the first person in many generations of my family to have the chance of going to university (unconditional offer at Sussex to do biomedical sciences if you must know) but I couldn't afford it so never went and got a job instead. I started work at 13 doing a paper round, at 14 I was working every weekend in a local cafe, at 15 I was additionally doing evening shifts at the local Little Chef. I worked all through college, took a year out and did a stint in a local accountancy firm to get work experience to support a NVQ in Accounting (which was paid, albeit at a low rate - I couldn't have paid for the travel to get there if they didn't offer something). I got my first employment break at 19, after finishing college, as an accounts junior and that got me onto a more stable path.

Now I'm snob, earning loadsamoney, pissing it all away on fancy holidays and expensive London rent.

[fullyautomatix]

There's a lad(17 years old) on LinkedIn at the moment who was furloughed, bored out of his tree so he went to see a local engineering firm and asked if he could work there for free as he wanted to learn and didn't want to spend all his time on his XBox. The MD of the company gave him a trial and has now offered to take over his apprenticeship.

The lad didn't bleat to the press about not being paid, he got on with it.

He also didn't post on LinkedIn, the MD of the company did.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to spend a day seeing if you like a job and the company likes you. Anything longer unpaid is taking the piss imho.

So "No, I won't be signing the petition".

One is a skilled industry which requires learning a lot of engineering knowledge. The other is a minimum wage job which does not require experience and can be done by any able bodied young person quite easily.

See the difference ?

It is plain as day that the restaurant in the second instance was plain exploiting a worker.

[d000hg]

There's a lad(17 years old) on LinkedIn at the moment who was furloughed, bored out of his tree so he went to see a local engineering firm and asked if he could work there for free as he wanted to learn and didn't want to spend all his time on his XBox. The MD of the company gave him a trial and has now offered to take over his apprenticeship.

The lad didn't bleat to the press about not being paid, he got on with it.

He also didn't post on LinkedIn, the MD of the company did.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to spend a day seeing if you like a job and the company likes you. Anything longer unpaid is taking the piss imho.

So "No, I won't be signing the petition".

He VOLUNTEERED you utter muppet. Volunteering is a great thing to do if you are able to, and happens quite a lot in many fields. Volunteering at a skilled trade is not the same as waitressing for free. I doubt she wanted to spend time learning the trade to keep her busy, probably was more interested in buying food.