Reply to: Has the welfare system distorted our economy?

[SueEllen]

Difficult to tell Daily Mash news from real news these days. That headline sounded highly credible to me.

Apparently Kensington and Chelsea spent around millions on opera in the park - Guardian link and the actual opera company

Seriously if you are going to be a rotten borough you need to be clever and look like you are not spending money only on rich people...

[Fred Bloggs]

Has the welfare system distorted our economy?

Yes. Next, please.

[PurpleGorilla]

As long as there is litter on the streets and potholes in the road there is a job for people at the bottom end of the scale. I would rather have a national service system that harnesses this labour and improves the environment and beauty of our streets and cities, rather than pay them to sit on their arses watching Jeremy Kyle.

[Lost It]

Back in the day we had Mill owners who would build homes for their workers, provide schooling etc. just to keep the workforce "captive" could be one argument, but having them in decent housing (compared to the housing standards of the day) with electricity, running water etc. made sound financial sense.

Same with Coal mines, Steel works etc. So what we have, historically, is relatively low cost housing available to support the local industry, I regularly drive through little villages in the middle of basically nowhere that must be there for some reason? But don't appear to be supporting anything.

So when these "industries" close down either through progress or lack of need in that area, we have lots of homes that can still fulfill a purpose, in this case whatever these homes were put up for seems to have moved on and the people with a vision of a kind have bought them up because they are close to their work?

But we do need the cleaners, the people who keep the infrastructure in place, the ones behind the scenes. It just so happens that if you price them out of the market for housing, soon enough you get the situation where people cannot afford to work in London, then what happens? It turns into a dustbin.

The person that sweeps the street is just as important to the health and wealth of the area as the bloke who dons a white shirt and tie and goes into the tower block to work the stock exchange. You might not think that, but last time there was a Dustbin strike, it soon got pretty ugly out there. These people keep the stations clean, the sewers working, the buses running, the street lighting in good shape, traffic signals going, there's "stuff" happening that many people are simply unaware of. They don't see it happen but for some reason think they are "better" than the guy cleaning the toilets.

Well, Someone has to do it...

So what's the answer? Bus them in? The Tube? I see lots of empty buses in London around the centre, I see lots of empty taxi's through the day, cyclists? Motorcyclists? I dunno. Why would anyone do that? For naff all an hour?

But the only way that these workers are going to be where they need to be is by supplying suitable housing for them. That's clear enough, I don't mind commuting 150 miles a day, but my company earns a decent enough fee for that to be worthwhile. If I was on minimum wage I wouldn't bother....

So yes. The welfare system has made it harder because the people that are needed to do these "menial" tasks are supported by the tax payer instead of the companies making all the money and paying a not very much in rates. The real cost of big business is subsidised by the public purse.

[xoggoth]

Difficult to tell Daily Mash news from real news these days. That headline sounded highly credible to me.

[northernladyuk]

[QUOTE=Elliegirl;2433212]

The Grenfell tragedy has again highlighted the fact that many are being subsidised via social housing and welfare in areas that most of us could not afford to live in. Yet the subsidy clearly isn't enough to provide basic safety. An area like London needs many low skilled workers, it could not function without street cleaners, café workers etc. but is the social system the right answer?


Kensington and Westminster council taxes are the lowest in the country, followed by Wandsworth, the borough I grew up in. A bribe to keep the councils Tory. It worked for my dad; it was the only time he ever voted Conservative. I remember being worried about this as a teenager; what effect would such low taxes have on financing social care, for example? If I am not mistaken, K and W recently issued a council tax rebate of about £100 to their residents celebrating the fact that services were so well run. I can think of plenty of good uses that money might have been put to...

Kensington Council holds emergency wine and cheese reception

[Elliegirl]

[QUOTE=xoggoth;2432517]The Grenfell tragedy has again highlighted the fact that many are being subsidised via social housing and welfare in areas that most of us could not afford to live in. Yet the subsidy clearly isn't enough to provide basic safety. An area like London needs many low skilled workers, it could not function without street cleaners, café workers etc. but is the social system the right answer?


Kensington and Westminster council taxes are the lowest in the country, followed by Wandsworth, the borough I grew up in. A bribe to keep the councils Tory. It worked for my dad; it was the only time he ever voted Conservative. I remember being worried about this as a teenager; what effect would such low taxes have on financing social care, for example? If I am not mistaken, K and W recently issued a council tax rebate of about £100 to their residents celebrating the fact that services were so well run. I can think of plenty of good uses that money might have been put to...

[xoggoth]

Nobody is saying they are not mostly decent hard working people, the point that that economist in the above link made WRT German productivity is that low wage employees make it less likely that businesses will reach for more technology that, in the end, will be much cheaper.

Machinery can be incredible. I was walking the other day and saw a farmer bale an entire field of straw in about 30mins. He just drove along, the trailer raked up the straw and shot the bales out the other end, all tied up. Not sure how much the thing cost but would he have brought it if he had easy access to 10 low paid workers for a day? What do we want to pursue, a high tech Japan/US/German economy or a Bangladesh style one?

You also have to consider how much a job really contributes to the useful economy. Some do necessary jobs but not all. How many nail bars, Polish food shops, car washes, leafletting companies etc. do we really need? Migration also creates its own demands. We may need more doctors and house builders but that is in part because migration gives us more patients and more demand for housing.

As I've said before, basic maths. You don't raise an average by adding more of average value. Migrants grow the GDP but that increased GDP is divided among a similarly increased population - none of us are any better off. Our resources, like housing, cannot possibly be expanded to keep pace with the population increase.

[BlasterBates]

I don't know why people complain about EU immigrants, everyone I know is pretty hard working gr8 at their jobs whether that's computing or plumbing. The staff in UK restaurants and in hotels in London are brilliant.

When the EU migrants (a term which makes them sound like undesirable vermin) go home I think they're going to be missed.

[SueEllen]

Agreed. I would class that as employment.

You said employment and skills, not employment or skills. Anyway thanks to the communist/socialist regimes most young EU immigrants have things that count as skills to immigration officials.

[The_Equalizer]

Picking crops or cutting up chickens aren't regarded as skilled jobs - but we need someone to do them.

Agreed. I would class that as employment.

[SueEllen]

People can enter the UK with or without work/skills. Why not just ensure they have employment and skills?

Picking crops or cutting up chickens aren't regarded as skilled jobs - but we need someone to do them.

[The_Equalizer]

We already can.

Have a look at the statistics of who emigrates here and is more likely to be unemployed - oddly it doesn't tend to be young people from the EU....

People can enter the UK with or without work/skills. Why not just ensure they have employment and skills?

[SueEllen]

What if we could pick and choose who came here? Might that help?

We already can.

Have a look at the statistics of who emigrates here and is more likely to be unemployed - oddly it doesn't tend to be young people from the EU....

[AtW]

In plain English it means you employ the person who lives down the road from the company rather than the person who lives in a foreign country.

Now "down the road" could literally mean down the road or it could mean in the same city or it could mean in the same country. I short you employ the person nearest the company even if you have to train them up.

So mobility of population goes out of the window then, people will have to move to area where jobs are and then relocate to get another job?

If those were the current rules then I'd have most of jobs created in another country.