Reply to: Scottish independence referendum Mk 2

[minestrone]

Independence in this decade is finished, the SNP know that.

[vetran]

FTFY

yes but they would be free of the hateful English to enjoy the stability and joy that is spreading across the EU.

[MrMarkyMark]

FTFY

So when a non-UK Scotland is a tiny tiny tiny little state within Europe, ceding powers to Brussels until boom, you'll be one of the skintest states in the country of Europe, not the country of Scotland.

It still doesn't sound like a vision of independence to me...

[chopper]

Because they would be a separate nation entering a club, not tightly bound into a union whose government they don't decide? The UK-EU and Scotland-UK couplings are very different.

A-ha, unresearched claptrap.

Out of the 18 General Elections since 1945, Scotland has got the party at Westminster which won the Scottish popular vote 12 times.

In 2005, England voted Conservative, but Labour won as a result of Scotland's vote (so here is an example of Scotland getting EXACTLY the government it voted for, changing the England vote). This wasn't the only time it happened, it also happened in 1950, 1951, 1964, 1974.

And as for government they don't decide, lets look at the EU parliament again. Not many people realise the president of the European Parliament changed this week, from Martin Schulz (bye bye) to Antonio Tajani. So, how many Scottish people voted for an Italian? Or the Italian party (Forza Italia - Berlusconi's party) he is a member of? Or even how many Scottish people voted for a party which is party of the European People's Party - the name of the coalition of national parties... I'll tell you the answer is zero - no UK parties are affiliated with European People's Party.

So those pro-EU, anti-UK Scottish people seem to be quite happy with being led by someone they never voted for. Scotland (or the rest of the UK) is completely voiceless in the current incarnation of the European Parliament.

So when a non-UK Scotland is a tiny tiny tiny little state within Europe, ceding powers to Brussels until boom, you'll be in the country of Europe, not the country of Scotland.

It still doesn't sound like a vision of independence to me...

[vetran]

Really no one spotted this?

CIA’s secret plan to give the Falklands to Argentina | Daily Mail Online

Revealed: CIA's secret plan to give the Falklands to Argentina and ship the islanders off to SCOTLAND
US planned to step in and hand the islands to Argentina following the invasion
CIA thought the British may have 'underestimated' the Argentinian military
Top secret papers reveal that security bosses prepared to offer islanders the choice of relocating to Scotland or to stay and become Argentinian citizens

sorted!

[PurpleGorilla]

Scottish independence referendum Mk 2

Interesting What Scotland Thinks? poll results since the EU Referendum:

How would you vote in a Scottish independence referendum if held now? (asked after the EU referendum)

Link doesn't work - try this:

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questi...d-now-ask#line

[The_Equalizer]

Interesting What Scotland Thinks? poll results since the EU Referendum:

How would you vote in a Scottish independence referendum if held now? (asked after the EU referendum)

[The_Equalizer]

I don't think it's people playing tactics, I think the pro-EU sentiment is genuine. Most people didn't seriously expect Brexit to happen so I don't think it was people voting other than what they actually felt was better.

Even if that is the case it's still worth noting the numbers that voted for each:

Brexit - 1m / Remain - 1.6m
Yes - 1.6m / No - 2m

[scooterscot]

Because they would be a separate nation entering a club, not tightly bound into a union whose government they don't decide? The UK-EU and Scotland-UK couplings are very different.

Exactly.

[vetran]

Because they would be a separate nation entering a club, not tightly bound into a union whose government they don't decide? The UK-EU and Scotland-UK couplings are very different.

club (klŭb)
n.
1.
a. A stout heavy stick, usually thicker at one end, suitable for use as a weapon; a cudgel.
b. An implement used in some games to drive a ball, especially a stick with a protruding head used in golf.
c. Something resembling a club.
2. Games
a. A black figure shaped like a trefoil or clover leaf on certain playing cards.
b. A playing card with this figure.
c. clubs(used with a sing. or pl. verb) The suit of cards represented by this figure.
3. A group of people organized for a common purpose, especially a group that meets regularly: a garden club.
4. The building, room, or other facility used for the meetings of an organized group.
5. Sports An athletic team or organization.
6. A nightclub.

I prefer

car·tel (kär-tĕl′)
n.
1. A combination of independent business organizations formed to regulate production, pricing, and marketing of goods by the members.
2. An official agreement between governments at war, especially one concerning the exchange of prisoners.
3. A group of parties, factions, or nations united in a common cause; a bloc.

[d000hg]

This is totally gut feeling (so therefore pretty meaningless), however, I would suggest Scotland's pro-EU stance was down to a combination of SNP voters plus a chunk of pro-Union Scots trying to avoid another indy ref by voting Remain. I feel it's worth noting that for Brexit 1,661,191 voted Remain. For the Scotish Indy vote 1,617,989 went with Yes and 2,001,926 with No.

I don't think it's people playing tactics, I think the pro-EU sentiment is genuine. Most people didn't seriously expect Brexit to happen so I don't think it was people voting other than what they actually felt was better.

[d000hg]

The question I ask keeps being unanswered.

How is Scotland leaving the UK and becoming a member of the EU in any way, shape or form 'independence'?

Because they would be a separate nation entering a club, not tightly bound into a union whose government they don't decide? The UK-EU and Scotland-UK couplings are very different.

[scooterscot]

Scotland is already a member of the EU being part of the UK, it just needs to retain membership when the UK leaves.

There are so many special circumstances; Denmark and Greenland, Denmark and the Fareo Islands, UK and Channel Islands, UK and Isle of Man, Spain and Gibraltar, Switzerland and Liechtenstein, Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland, France and Monaco, Spain/France and Andorra, San Marino and Italy, the Vatican and Italy...

The EU makes out that it would be exceptional to have Scotland as a devolved member. But that is nonsense when you consider how many other special and exceptional circumstances exist in Europe.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

I will say that again because it is all that matters.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

The Spanish are against Scotland keeping membership when the rUK leaves because it doesn't want the same thing to happen with parts of Spain. So there isn't a collective 'will' to make this happen in the EU (Scot annexation and membership).

Look I must be in a minority here because I am pro Scot Indi and pro UK brexit. But it has to be what the majority want, that is democracy surely!

Most sensible thing I've heard you say.

[The_Equalizer]

Like Brexit it as least as much about pride and sentiment as genuine belief in economic positions. Good old patriotism an principle.

Scotland is SO pro-EU that being pulled out against their will, especially after all the mess of indyref and the last minute platitudes from Cameron et al, puts them in an awkward position. It's a perfect illustration of Scotland's place and importance in the UK - which is to say not much.

I think once Brexit is on some sort of real timeline, or has terms decided, they should have another referendum and get it out of the way. Otherwise this grumbling will only continue to fester. Lance the wound and see what they want.

This is totally gut feeling (so therefore pretty meaningless), however, I would suggest Scotland's pro-EU stance was down to a combination of SNP voters plus a chunk of pro-Union Scots trying to avoid another indy ref by voting Remain. I feel it's worth noting that for Brexit 1,661,191 voted Remain. For the Scotish Indy vote 1,617,989 went with Yes and 2,001,926 with No.

[DonaldJTrump]

How is Scotland leaving the UK and becoming a member of the EU in any way, shape or form 'independence'?

That Scotland would not be free to trade with rUK or have an open land border with England

What build another wall?