Reply to: Shockingly Tony B'Liar wants to ignore the democratic will of the people.

[shaunbhoy]

I was asking what you'd actually want to change, imagining (wrongly obviously) you might have some constructive suggestions rather than simply moaning about how everything is.

I was not "simply moaning". I was answering your previous question as to why the majority of people voted to LEAVE. Stay awake why don't you?

If the EU granted control of immigration caps to the UK would you be happy to carry on?

No, not even close. The EU as an entity is hugely flawed and is so far removed from what it originally set out to be as to completely unrecognisable.
It is grossly wasteful and cannot account for where colossal sums of money end up each year. Any business operating that way would be forced to cease trading PDQ.
The whole notion that you can get 28 disparate entities to agree in a timely fashion about virtually anything is risible.
The best thing that could happen is for this current abortion to completely collapse. Then from the wreckage, a new and much more streamlined version can emerge. One that both retains the individual sovereign identities of all members for internal matters, yet happily coexists as a simple trading bloc with minimal need for bureaucratic involvement.

[xoggoth]

It's also true that the older generation were more inclined to want out. Why? Because they are better informed about the real issues, having seen it all before. They have seen the failures of the idealists over and over again and are more in touch with reality.

The young are too often, not only ignorant (despite that 2.2 in media studies or whatever) of the real issues but obsessed with the latest unrealistic ideals. If the aims of my hippy yoof had won over, what was left of mankind would be back in caves, just smoking weed and saying wow man over and over.

[VectraMan]

1) General mistrust of politicians (This has probably been ENHANCED since the vote itself!)
2) A protest vote at the inability of any major party to listen to their core electorate
3) The PC Brigade attempting to outlaw even general and reasonable concerns over the levels of immigration and our national inability to control it
4) Disenchantment over the value of a vote in our own Parliamentary system as it can routinely be usurped by the wishes of people that we cannot remove if they fail to deliver upon them
5) The driving down of wages due to an endless supply of low-skilled and unskilled migrants from poorer EU countries prepared to work for NMW or less
6) The pressure on our infrastructure, particularly schools, hospitals, and housing
7) The fact that the majority of those suggesting REMAIN are those gaining personally from fact 6)

I could go on but if you didn't grasp the above during the debate then I doubt you will get it now either.

I was asking what you'd actually want to change, imagining (wrongly obviously) you might have some constructive suggestions rather than simply moaning about how everything is. If the EU granted control of immigration caps to the UK would you be happy to carry on?

[xoggoth]

Too much reality for them there SB.

Maybe an appreciation of history too, how these imposed empires that ignore real cultural differences and aims never work. Look at Yugoslavia. Or the UK, Scotland has been part of the UK for 300 years and they still want out.

We keep seeing this repeated mantra that it is the educated that want out. Only true if education is defined in a very limited sense as going to university/college to study a course on some specific subject. Completing a course in media studies or whatever does not mean greater knowledge of the world.

[shaunbhoy]

I was asking you and you didn't answer. Do you not know?

1) General mistrust of politicians (This has probably been ENHANCED since the vote itself!)
2) A protest vote at the inability of any major party to listen to their core electorate
3) The PC Brigade attempting to outlaw even general and reasonable concerns over the levels of immigration and our national inability to control it
4) Disenchantment over the value of a vote in our own Parliamentary system as it can routinely be usurped by the wishes of people that we cannot remove if they fail to deliver upon them
5) The driving down of wages due to an endless supply of low-skilled and unskilled migrants from poorer EU countries prepared to work for NMW or less
6) The pressure on our infrastructure, particularly schools, hospitals, and housing
7) The fact that the majority of those suggesting REMAIN are those gaining personally from fact 6)

I could go on but if you didn't grasp the above during the debate then I doubt you will get it now either.

[vetran]

I was asking you and you didn't answer. Do you not know?

I do and have mentioned it multiple times. I thought it was time for the Bremainers to do some work rather than insulting over half the voters who disagreed with them.

[VectraMan]

what else fuelled the leave vote?

Why did over half the country vote leave?

I was asking you and you didn't answer. Do you not know?

[vetran]

Therein lies the problem. Egotistical churlish surly empire-building federalist unaccountable frivolous feckless wasteful unelected bullyboy undemocratic c0ckwombles like Juncker DON'T want to!!

yet the remainers don't want to see that.

[GB9]

Article yesterday about Merkel ousting Juncker as he wants to use Brexit as a way to finish the project whereas Merkel is learning fast.

[shaunbhoy]

It could take an afternoon if both parties wanted it to.

Therein lies the problem. Egotistical churlish surly empire-building federalist unaccountable frivolous feckless wasteful unelected bullyboy undemocratic c0ckwombles like Juncker DON'T want to!!

[vetran]

Remain would probably win if there was another vote anyway as the non-voters would wake up, and the people who googled "What is the EU" after voting Leave would know what they were voting for this time.

But what would be the "fix"? Lots of people talked about reforming the EU, but nobody ever said what the reform is. Making it more democratic by holding more elections would be dumb; nobody really cares enough to vote more. You can't have a common market without everybody agreeing to follow the same rules, and if you go back to every country having a veto on everything nothing will ever get agreed. So is it simply allowing immigration caps?

what else fuelled the leave vote?

Why did over half the country vote leave?

And no its not because they are stupid and they should have agreed with you (that however is a big clue to one issue).

[VectraMan]

If they fixed the problems with the EU and took another vote I'm sure remain would win.

Remain would probably win if there was another vote anyway as the non-voters would wake up, and the people who googled "What is the EU" after voting Leave would know what they were voting for this time.

But what would be the "fix"? Lots of people talked about reforming the EU, but nobody ever said what the reform is. Making it more democratic by holding more elections would be dumb; nobody really cares enough to vote more. You can't have a common market without everybody agreeing to follow the same rules, and if you go back to every country having a veto on everything nothing will ever get agreed. So is it simply allowing immigration caps?

[vetran]

And just how long do you imagine THAT might take? It would be a vote for our great-grandchildren to ponder.

It could take an afternoon if both parties wanted it to.

[shaunbhoy]

If they fixed the problems with the EU and took another vote I'm sure remain would win.

And just how long do you imagine THAT might take? It would be a vote for our great-grandchildren to ponder.

[NotAllThere]

I have heard it suggested that because the vote was not 60% in favour then it can be ignored by parliament.

Technically, if the vote was 99.99999% if favour of Brexit, the result could be ignored by parliament. Politically, however, it's another story.