Reply to: Brexit won't stop EU migration

[Flashman]

no they don't. EFTA countries have the exact same rules.

https://next.ft.com/content/fba39018...0-42b68cfae6e4


As Old Greg points out, the UK government can unilaterally exit the EU at any time it wants simply by passing an act of parliament, unlike the 2 year exit clause there would be no international agreement in place so it would cause havoc, but it can be done.

No they don't they have an agreement in place with the EU.

Part of that agreement states that EFTA countries have the legal right to unilaterally to take action if “serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties of a sectoral or regional nature arise and are liable to persist” as a result of excessive migration.

While the 'safeguard measures' are in place EFTA-EU trade continues.

[Flashman]

Parliament is sovereign and an Act of Parliament could invalidate the application of the freedoms at s stroke.

Yes the moment the European Communities Act 1972 is repealed or amended the EU has no legal authority over the UK.

[Mordac]

I can stop my little toe from itching by pointing a twelve bore at my foot. Doesn't mean its sensible.

Technically, you'd have to pull the trigger at some point. Otherwise there's kind of no bleeding point like. Or are you just slightly more mouth than trousers...?

[DodgyAgent]

And that's a bad thing, how?

I never said it was a bad thing

[Mordac]

If the UK leaves the EU will dismantle and countries like Switzerland will ignore them

And that's a bad thing, how?

[vetran]

The UK has the same emergency break.

As Old Greg points out, the UK government can unilaterally exit the EU at any time it wants simply by passing an act of parliament, unlike the 2 year exit clause there would be no international agreement in place so it would cause havoc, but it can be done.

I can stop my little toe from itching by pointing a twelve bore at my foot. Doesn't mean its sensible.

[BlasterBates]

Not a bad effort at least your coming round to the EFTA-EEA solution but slightly incomplete. EFTA countries do have the option of halting EU immigration. The 'emergency break'.

no they don't. EFTA countries have the exact same rules.

https://next.ft.com/content/fba39018...0-42b68cfae6e4


As Old Greg points out, the UK government can unilaterally exit the EU at any time it wants simply by passing an act of parliament, unlike the 2 year exit clause there would be no international agreement in place so it would cause havoc, but it can be done.

[Old Greg]

Sadly not correct. The 'Four freedoms' are a fundamental part of the Treaty of Rome that we signed up to.

The Free Movement of People in the European Union: principle, stakes and challenges

Parliament is sovereign and an Act of Parliament could invalidate the application of the freedoms at s stroke.

[Flashman]

Although with Parliamentary sovereignty as it stands, there is already an emergency break. If Parliament passed the Immigration Emergency Break Act, the EU would not be able to overturn it.

Sadly not correct. The 'Four freedoms' are a fundamental part of the Treaty of Rome that we signed up to.

The Free Movement of People in the European Union: principle, stakes and challenges

The principle of the free movement of people as expressed in the Rome Treaty developed as part of the Internal Market. It became more extensive with the Schengen Agreements (1985). This principle is also inexorably linked to European citizenship of which it typifies a major achievement.

The real stumbling block is the European Communities Act 1972 giving power over us to the European Court of Justice.

For the purposes of all legal proceedings any question as to the meaning or effect of any of the Treaties, or as to the validity, meaning or effect of any Community instrument, shall be treated as a question of law (and, if not referred to the European Court, be for determination as such in accordance with the principles laid down by and any relevant decision of the European Court or any court attached thereto

Get rid of this Act and we are free. Free!

[Old Greg]

Not a bad effort at least your coming round to the EFTA-EEA solution but slightly incomplete. EFTA countries do have the option of halting EU immigration. The 'emergency break'.

Membership of EEA-EFTA offers equal access for Britain to the Single Market, but frees Britain from political union, from the CAP, the Common Fisheries Policy, the Customs Union, the Common Trade Policy, Common Foreign and Security Policy, Justice and Home Affairs and the monetary union.

With Britain it'd be the fourth largest trading bloc in the world.

All good stuff. g

Plus

The EEA Agreement gives EEA-EFTA members controls over the four freedoms that EU member states do not have.

The agreement allows Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein to have an emergency brake on the four freedoms – not an emergency brake that must be cleared by the European Commission, but one that any one of the Governments of the EEA-EFTA countries can pull themselves. (a real, effective emergency break)

Although with Parliamentary sovereignty as it stands, there is already an emergency break. If Parliament passed the Immigration Emergency Break Act, the EU would not be able to overturn it.

[Flashman]

Brexiteers point to Norway and Switzerland as models we should aspire to - not realising that in both countries the right of freedom of movement for EU nationals exist.
In both those countries per capita European migration is higher than the UK.
Switzerland recently voted in a referendum to stop free EU movement, but the EU has refused to negotiate on the matter.
Basically it's a condition for access to the single European market.
So the only way to really stop EU migration is to agree not to access the European Single Market.
Lets see what the Swiss decide to do.
But given that 45% of UK exports go to the European single market area, for the UK to not have access to the single European market (or to have tariffs imposed) would be economically very difficult indeed.

PS Don't blame the messenger as some on here tend to do. The above is all factual.

Not a bad effort at least your coming round to the EFTA-EEA solution but slightly incomplete. EFTA countries do have the option of halting EU immigration. The 'emergency break'.

Membership of EEA-EFTA offers equal access for Britain to the Single Market, but frees Britain from political union, from the CAP, the Common Fisheries Policy, the Customs Union, the Common Trade Policy, Common Foreign and Security Policy, Justice and Home Affairs and the monetary union. With Britain it'd be the fourth largest trading bloc in the world.

All good stuff

Plus

The EEA Agreement gives EEA-EFTA members controls over the four freedoms that EU member states do not have.

The agreement allows Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein to have an emergency brake on the four freedoms – not an emergency brake that must be cleared by the European Commission, but one that any one of the Governments of the EEA-EFTA countries can pull themselves. (a real, effective emergency break)

EFTA = full access to the Single Market without the EU's political baggage.
EFTA = Option to control EU immigration if needed.

Win/Win. Hard to see any objections really?

[jamesbrown]

Well I've lived in Germany for 26+ years and work/travel/play in many other EU countries and see pretty much the opposite...

As I said, it depends where you are and what you're looking for. But let's look at some of the recent, non-anecdotal, evidence, such as the probability that the next Austrian President is going to be a full-on Nazi, the rejection of the EU/Ukraine deal by the Dutch, the election of the far left in Greece and the far right in Poland. Obviously, it would be stupid to blame all of this on the EU, but it's a significant factor.

[vetran]

I thought it was quite clear that i'm against "uncontrolled" immigration.
That's what this thread is about.
I don't know what the solution is though - although I suspect some highly pragmatic "discouragement" could work wonders.

so lets understand this.

1. Freedom of movement for every citizen is a core principle of the EU. Therefore immigration is effectively uncontrolled within the EU.
2. We should place artificial barriers in place so it doesn't happen like other EU members.
3. Because we behave dishonorably we aren't really for uncontrolled immigration from other EU countries.

which bit didn't I understand?

[DodgyAgent]

Well I've lived in Germany for 26+ years and work/travel/play in many other EU countries and see pretty much the opposite...

Bully for you

[darmstadt]

Perhaps. I haven't lived in Germany for long. I was in Tubingen for 6 months, and I didn't get that impression. I've also lived in quite a few other EU countries over the years (the last was NL for ~4 years), and I've anecdotally found that Euroscepticism is strong, widespread, and growing. I suppose it depends where you are and what you're looking for. Overall, I think there's a large degree of truth in that article by Charles Moore, posted earlier in the thread. While "elite" is mostly a lazy pejorative, the problem to which it refers is undeniable; the EU takes detachment to a new, unprecedented, level.

Well I've lived in Germany for 26+ years and work/travel/play in many other EU countries and see pretty much the opposite...