Reply to: Junior doctors

[NigelJK]

Unfortunately, the Independent then changed into being the most left wing and aggresively PC of all UK newspapers, as I saw it.

Blame Janet Street Porter for that.

Isn't this just the old fashioned Tory bashing left wing union football game, with the Docs as the unwitting football?

If the docs were paid as well as the private 'admin' consultants used by the NHS then we'd not have a problem.

I vote for Freelance Docs.

[darmstadt]

Jeremey Hunt, turning into a real big...Jeremy Hunt talk goes ahead after doctors were told it was cancelled | UK Politics | News | The Independent

[SueEllen]

@Unixman at one public sector client's I had, I discovered that the employer and employees pension contributions were between 13.8% to 22% each.

Do you put 13.8%, 15% or 20% into your pension from your salary? Does your company also put in 13.8%, 15% or 20%?

GP partners pay both the employer and employee contributions. Locums, salaried GPs and hospital doctors are considered employees so the employer makes their contribution while they contribute the rest.

In private sector companies the best I've seen is 8% with the employee having to put in at least 5%. So no way are private sector pensions going to match public sector pensions even if they used the same schemes.

[unixman]

Do you have some actual references for this?

Yes. As stated my earlier post links straight to the BMA's own worked example.

Again you are confusing hospital doctors with GP's.

Again, as stated, the example is for a GP of perhaps about my own age (48). This is what the BMA worked example is about.

A fully qualified Doctor will be paying in 14.5% of their salary as pension contributions

Excellent, glad to hear it. Have you got a link for reference, I couldn't find one, except an old Guardian story saying that this might happen in future. From the little research I have done, it seems "locum" GP's have a 14.3% "employers contribution" paid by their practice. I could be (and sure hope I am) wrong about that.

You are also overlooking the fact that Doctors pensions are broadly in line with those of Civil Servants and Teachers, although they pay more in contributions than either of those. A Senior Head Teacher or Senior Civil Servant with 35 years of contributions will get roughly the same as a Senior Doctor on retirement subject to minor differences in salary.

Yes, I am aware that the pensions for other senior public workers are extremely generous. The salary of a council chief dwarfs even that of most senior doctors, as well as the Prime Minister. Probably their pensions too but I haven't researched that.

The NHS pension fund is an unfunded scheme. It does not accumulate a Pension Pot to pay out, current pensions are funded by contributions from those still working. Any surplus is paid back to the treasury (£2b in 2012). The government provides a guarantee of pension payments should there be a short fall...

Who shoulders the risk, underwrites the payout and covers any shortfall ? You do, DaveB. I would hardly describe that as "unfunded".

Finally, this dispute is still not about the money, it's about having sufficient doctors available to cover the extra working hours that the government wants to impose. The BMA offered to take less money in the pay deal in order to fund increased cover for the 7 day working and the government rejected that.

I won't argue with you there.

You asked about my pension calculations. My forecast of 4.5k assumes that the stock market prospers reasonably (!) and I make no more payments in. If I pay in, say, £200 per month, it would increase my income after retirement from 4.5k to somewhere about 6k according to my pension provider's annual statement and their online calculator. However, my experience of the last 17 years shows that the performance has been anything but "prosperous". I need to marry that teacher/doctor/council chief, and quickly. Problem is, I look like my avatar.

[DaveB]

Slight correction to my earlier post re pensions. I said a GP of roughly my age would obtain a pension about 9 times better than mine on retirement. It is actually more like 11 times when you take into account the doctor's earlier retirement age. He will be receiving his pension for 29 years, assuming we both live to 89, while mine will pay out for 24 years.

It is genuinely surprising that when looking at the pension provision for an average NHS doc, you have to use the word "million" quite a lot. The retiring GP will receive 115k immediately as a gift, plus 38k for the next 29 years, very roughly. 115+29*30 = 1.217 million pounds. Million. (The figure for me is 0+24*4.5 = 108k.)

In order to get on terms with the doc, I would have to build up a pension pot of over 2 million pounds. Millions. Plural. And that would come entirely out of my pre-tax income of course, not from the UK taxpayer. And it would be subject to stock market risk. The only answer would seem to be to marry a doctor.

So yes I am happy for the junior doctors to strike. Everyone should be allowed to strike and the occasional short strike shows we have a healthy society. But it's my money they are asking for, and the answer, this time, is No.

Do you have some actual references for this? How much are you paying into your pension? Thats what drives the final value. A fully qualified Doctor will be paying in 14.5% of their salary as pension contributions. The NHS pension scheme is

Again you are confusing hospital doctors with GP's.

You are also overlooking the fact that Doctors pensions are broadly in line with those of Civil Servants and Teachers, although they pay more in contributions than either of those.

A Senior Head Teacher or Senior Civil Servant with 35 years of contributions will get roughly the same as a Senior Doctor on retirement subject to minor differences in salary.

The NHS pension fund is an unfunded scheme. It does not accumulate a Pension Pot to pay out, current pensions are funded by contributions from those still working. Any surplus is paid back to the treasury (£2b in 2012). The government provides a guarantee of pension payments should there be a short fall, but the government actuary controls this by adjusting contribution levels accordingly.

Finally, this dispute is still not about the money, it's about having sufficient doctors available to cover the extra working hours that the government wants to impose. The BMA offered to take less money in the pay deal in order to fund increased cover for the 7 day working and the government rejected that.

[darmstadt]

I'm waiting for a privileged contractor to write a letter like this:

Last night I was the sole doctor on site caring for over 100 patients who were acutely unwell with complications from their cancer. Some couldn't breath, some were fighting overwhelming infections with literally no immune system, one had bleeding in their head, one had a blockage in their bowels. If I made a mistake because I was tired, any one of these patients could've died.

Every cancer patient in the south Birmingham region has a direct line to call for advice or help. 11 new unwell patients arrived and I assessed and treated them too. There was not a single manager in the whole hospital. Last night, I ran the oncology service for the whole south Birmingham region from inside the biggest teaching hospital in Europe.

Apparently I have no transferable skills to find a different job. And then I stood on a picket line in the cold to save our NHS. But my shift wasn't during the strike, it was just what countless other junior doctors do everyday.

I am 27 years old. I work 60 hours a week, for the 48 that I'm paid for, I earn £18/hour.

Apparently I lack vocation, I'm overpaid and I need to work harder.

Screw you Jeremy Hunt. We never asked for thanks. All we do is for our patients, how dare you try and turn them against us. All of this is your government's fault. Well you've picked a fight with the wrong crowd.

Go on, announce imposition, and just see what the most resilient, driven, passionate, intelligent group of people in Britain do next. Bring it on.

[unixman]

Slight correction to my earlier post re pensions. I said a GP of roughly my age would obtain a pension about 9 times better than mine on retirement. It is actually more like 11 times when you take into account the doctor's earlier retirement age. He will be receiving his pension for 29 years, assuming we both live to 89, while mine will pay out for 24 years.

It is genuinely surprising that when looking at the pension provision for an average NHS doc, you have to use the word "million" quite a lot. The retiring GP will receive 115k immediately as a gift, plus 38k for the next 29 years, very roughly. 115+29*30 = 1.217 million pounds. Million. (The figure for me is 0+24*4.5 = 108k.)

In order to get on terms with the doc, I would have to build up a pension pot of over 2 million pounds. Millions. Plural. And that would come entirely out of my pre-tax income of course, not from the UK taxpayer. And it would be subject to stock market risk. The only answer would seem to be to marry a doctor.

So yes I am happy for the junior doctors to strike. Everyone should be allowed to strike and the occasional short strike shows we have a healthy society. But it's my money they are asking for, and the answer, this time, is No.

[DaveB]

Exactly my point. Take it or leave it.

Time to bring those Eastern European nurses junior doctors ...

You mean the ones that won't be able to work here if the proposed immigration changes go through our we leave the EU?

[darmstadt]

Exactly my point. Take it or leave it.

Time to bring those Eastern European nurses junior doctors ...

Well you won't once the Tory immigration laws/bills get passed as they won't earn enough

[FatLazyContractor]

It's no different to a client taking on a contractor with a contracts having one set of T&C's and then changing it 6 months at later at renewal for a worse set with a take it or leave it attitude on the assumption that you will just accept it. The Doctors aren't accepting it and many of them are prepared to walk away if it isn't resolved. This is the advise any contractor posting on here under the same circumstances would get. Accept it or push back and be prepared to walk if it doesn't work out.

Exactly my point. Take it or leave it.

Time to bring those Eastern European nurses junior doctors ...

[DaveB]

Yes, these time wasters know it even before they enter the field. It is not that they are all promised £100,000 as a starting wage.

Wonder if they have forgotten the fact that they have all signed a contract before they started? No legal ground to their claims, so they strike

Yes they do, but they still do the job.

This isn't, and never was, about money. Thats just the bulltulip and spin from Hunt that you are happily swallowing.

Junior Doctors effectively work on fixed term contracts. New contracts get signed every year, as they change jobs every year. Thats why the new contracts have caused such an upheaval. Rather than a negotiated agreement, Hunt is now imposing a new contract on all Junior Doctors that will come into effect for them on their next job rotation.

It's no different to a client taking on a contractor with a contracts having one set of T&C's and then changing it 6 months at later at renewal for a worse set with a take it or leave it attitude on the assumption that you will just accept it. The Doctors aren't accepting it and many of them are prepared to walk away if it isn't resolved. This is the advise any contractor posting on here under the same circumstances would get. Accept it or push back and be prepared to walk if it doesn't work out.

The hospital management that Hunt claimed supported him have turned round and told him that's not what they wanted and many of them are preparing to negotiate directly with BMA rather than use the contract being imposed.

[darmstadt]

They just stopped printing it.

Independent to cease as print edition - BBC News

Yeah, but there will still be an online edition, which is all I ever read, its not as if its gone

[FatLazyContractor]

On least thing for today.

For those arguing that Junior Doctors are paid enough already and should stop whinging.

This is what they get paid:

First year out of Medical School : Between £22,636 and £25,461 depending on what scale the Hospital they work at pays them. At best they can expect £489 per week basic pay.

This is for a nominal 56 hour week, including on call hours, night shifts etc.

That works out to £8.73 per hour. Before Tax.

They may be able to earn more by working weekend shifts that pay a premium, which could put them up to £17 or so per hour but only for 8 hours. So an extra £70 for working a weekend.

By their second year they can look forward to up to £31748 pa. £610 per week. £10.89 per hour. Before tax.

These are the TOP rates pf pay on the current pay scales.

BMA - Junior doctors pay England | British Medical Association

They also pay £420 a year to the General Medical Council to maintain their registration in order to practice. They also have to have Professional Indemnity Insurance.

Once they finish their first two years they go onto the registrar scale. This generally lasts for up to 6 years before they can qualify as a Consultant. The top rate for a senior registrar who has been a doctor for almost 10 years by this point is £47,175.

So the doctor who treats you when you wind up in hospital could be earning little more than minimum wage.

Yes, these time wasters know it even before they enter the field. It is not that they are all promised £100,000 as a starting wage.

Wonder if they have forgotten the fact that they have all signed a contract before they started? No legal ground to their claims, so they strike

[mudskipper]

Last edited by unixman; Today at 14:34. Reason: can't spell independent

You missed one

[unixman]

They just stopped printing it.

Independent to cease as print edition - BBC News

So sad to hear about the Independent. I am old enough to remember its lauch, when it prided itself on being neither left nor right, and ran TV adverts to that affect. Slogan: "The Independent - it is. Are you?". Unfortunately, the Independent then changed into being the most left wing and aggresively PC of all UK newspapers, as I saw it.

I try to read all the papers. One coffee shop in my small town stocks only the left ones - Guardian, Indy - and the other coffee shop stocks only the right wing ones. So I browse the lot for free. Feeling a bit guilty for not buying the Indy more often now.