Reply to: Xmas Lunches & IR35

[LondonManc]

Both would be ok as long as you are differentiated from the permie workforce. If you are under the same invite as them, no different wording, same accommodation, expenses rules etc I'd not be happy. If they send you a mail pointing out although you are not a permanent member of staff you are cordially invited to join them then fill your boots. That said if they do invite you the same as the permies I'd be willing to be that's the tip of the iceberg and you've got bigger issues to deal with.

IMO the best outcome is to be told that not being a member of staff you cannot attend. Print it out and store with the rest of your IR35 defence.

We've had a few "permies free, contractors £20" offerings. Always good IR35 ammo. Arguably worth attending one so that you can put it on file that you paid.

[northernladuk]

That could be read two ways so in the interest of clarity did you mean if they invite ALL outside workers, you can go? Or did you mean if they invite YOU as an outside worker, you can go?

Both would be ok as long as you are differentiated from the permie workforce. If you are under the same invite as them, no different wording, same accommodation, expenses rules etc I'd not be happy. If they send you a mail pointing out although you are not a permanent member of staff you are cordially invited to join them then fill your boots. That said if they do invite you the same as the permies I'd be willing to be that's the tip of the iceberg and you've got bigger issues to deal with.

IMO the best outcome is to be told that not being a member of staff you cannot attend. Print it out and store with the rest of your IR35 defence.

[d000hg]

It is clear.

If the company invites outside workers regardless who they are and it's free you can go e.g. temps, random off-site suppliers who happened to be around. If they don't then you can't.

If you pay for it you can go regardless as it's your own money.

It's called maintaining a business relationship.

That could be read two ways so in the interest of clarity did you mean if they invite ALL outside workers, you can go? Or did you mean if they invite YOU as an outside worker, you can go?

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

Is it only about the money though? Isn't being invited with the permies like being treated as a permie - it's not an open invite, and they don't (I assume) invite other suppliers like their cleaner or whatever.

At the Christmas party I attended there were several representatives of my client's own clients, including those who were involved in the same project that I was involved with, plus some people from a design agency who worked on the project.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

Attendance at a client's Xmas party is a minor pointer to being "part and parcel" of the organisation at best. I've only ever been invited to one client Christmas party, which I attended and I had no concerns about my IR35 status. Its all relative.

If your contract and working practices are so bad then attending might be another tick in the IR35 column if you get investigated but it itself is not going to make you IR35 caught.

[northernladuk]

It is clear.

If the company invites outside workers regardless who they are and it's free you can go e.g. temps, random off-site suppliers who happened to be around. If they don't then you can't.

If you pay for it you can go regardless as it's your own money.

It's called maintaining a business relationship.

^ This.

[SueEllen]

The festive season - just as festive for contractors!

Clear? No, thought not. It's called gauging opinion

It is clear.

If the company invites outside workers regardless who they are and it's free you can go e.g. temps, random off-site suppliers who happened to be around. If they don't then you can't.

If you pay for it you can go regardless as it's your own money.

It's called maintaining a business relationship.

[northernladuk]

The festive season - just as festive for contractors!

Clear? No, thought not. It's called gauging opinion

There you go. You have an opinion. Now to apply it to your own situation. Easy.

[MarkT]

No it's not. A basic grasp of IR35 should give someone enough information to be able to make a decision on minute issues such as this. Running IR35 as a tickbox exercise with zero understanding causes people to fall over at points like this.

The festive season - just as festive for contractors!

Clear? No, thought not. It's called gauging opinion

[northernladuk]

I think it's quite understandable.

Relationships are important, so an Xmas do can be good business. If the client wants to buy the mean - it really shouldn't be a problem. This is where HMRC fails to understand how people work in the real world. WTF should a few hundred quid of Xmas gifts and schmoozing count as BIS? Unless it is Bull Illogical S***

No it's not. A basic grasp of IR35 should give someone enough information to be able to make a decision on minute issues such as this. Running IR35 as a tickbox exercise with zero understanding causes people to fall over at points like this.

[MrMarkyMark]

Is it only about the money though? Isn't being invited with the permies like being treated as a permie - it's not an open invite, and they don't (I assume) invite other suppliers like their cleaner or whatever.

I think this is all rather daft personally. Businesses work based on relationships so if they want to invite you to their all-expenses paid dinner as a way of thanking you or as a mark or respect that is surely OK.

I get invited to my current client's thing, typically the MD emails me and asks if I'd like to come. That's not what the permies get.

Possibly, they would use the money as the "proof" factor.
I think its totally stupid too, I mean there is no issue when my agency takes me out for a paid for dinner / lunch / drinks.

[MarkT]

So many people with such a poor grasp of IR35. Makes me want to cry....

Well sometimes you just want to validate your own thought processes.

[d000hg]

Is it only about the money though? Isn't being invited with the permies like being treated as a permie - it's not an open invite, and they don't (I assume) invite other suppliers like their cleaner or whatever.

I think this is all rather daft personally. Businesses work based on relationships so if they want to invite you to their all-expenses paid dinner as a way of thanking you or as a mark or respect that is surely OK.

I get invited to my current client's thing, typically the MD emails me and asks if I'd like to come. That's not what the permies get.

[PurpleGorilla]

So many people with such a poor grasp of IR35. Makes me want to cry....

I think it's quite understandable.

Relationships are important, so an Xmas do can be good business. If the client wants to buy the mean - it really shouldn't be a problem. This is where HMRC fails to understand how people work in the real world. WTF should a few hundred quid of Xmas gifts and schmoozing count as BIS? Unless it is Bull Illogical S***

[MrMarkyMark]

I read that as EVERYONE pays for themselves?

Then its not here or there, it does matter in any case.
As long as he funds his own lunch, whatever others are doing, then he is fine.