Reply to: Tube Strike

[SpontaneousOrder]

It's not the consumer who is under paying it's the supermarkets. The supermarkets use milk as a loss leader so pay farmers as little as possible.

Also farmers have been getting out of dairy farming for years. I heard of farmers getting rid of their herd since the early 90's due to price.

It's the same thing. People want milk - if they don't sell it to the supermarkets then someone else would sell it. It's the subsidies that are the problem though, for the smaller producers. But in that case they should be petitioning to have the state protectionism removed - not supermarket prices raised. Although they've kinda been ****ed over, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Regarding people getting out since the nineties - if i remember right, while that true, the average herd size has increased and production per cow has increased too.

At the end of the day, there's no such thing as magic. Produce less and the price rises. If it's not profitable then it's not profitable. It's the producer's concern and none else's (except perhaps with regards to the market-skewing protectionism).

[vetran]

If we could replace all the public sector with Visual Basic, then the unions wouldn't have any power.

Problem solved.

would that make them 'GOTO guys?'

[SueEllen]

Yep - those farmer should go get ****ed. I can't believe my eyes seeing people on Facebook reposting those tulipty posters where they complain that they are selling their product at less than cost, and expect the consumer to volunteer to pay more ???!!!

Here's an idea - produce less (try farming something which is profitable), and the price will rise. Magic.

It's not the consumer who is under paying it's the supermarkets. The supermarkets use milk as a loss leader so pay farmers as little as possible.

Also farmers have been getting out of dairy farming for years. I heard of farmers getting rid of their herd since the early 90's due to price.

[SpontaneousOrder]

I'd say it's more subsidisation than anything else, you have a right to a decent wage etc. but if your job just isn't sustainable because there is lack of demand, abundance of supply, or it's just not what you want, then you need to leave. If we subsidise you by paying you a bit of extra money then that is not gonna be sustainable in any way shape or form into the future. Maybe in the short term it seems nice that old fred the farmer who can't make a profit on selling milk due to 23859235 farmers doing the same thing is gonna get an extra bit of dosh from the government to keep his business going, but how long do you keep that up, and how many farmers do you have to give this money to.

Yep - those farmer should go get ****ed. I can't believe my eyes seeing people on Facebook reposting those tulipty posters where they complain that they are selling their product at less than cost, and expect the consumer to volunteer to pay more ???!!!

Here's an idea - produce less (try farming something which is profitable), and the price will rise. Magic.

[SpontaneousOrder]

Absolutely agree. The free market, with reasonable protections in place, is by far the best driver of a successful economy.

The trouble with freedom is that people start to realise they don't need government in their lives. Government needs people to need them.

[NibblyPig]

I'd say it's more subsidisation than anything else, you have a right to a decent wage etc. but if your job just isn't sustainable because there is lack of demand, abundance of supply, or it's just not what you want, then you need to leave. If we subsidise you by paying you a bit of extra money then that is not gonna be sustainable in any way shape or form into the future. Maybe in the short term it seems nice that old fred the farmer who can't make a profit on selling milk due to 23859235 farmers doing the same thing is gonna get an extra bit of dosh from the government to keep his business going, but how long do you keep that up, and how many farmers do you have to give this money to.

[xoggoth]

If your job sucks, get another job. If you can't because you don't have any skills, go and learn some, then get another job

Absolutely agree. The free market, with reasonable protections in place, is by far the best driver of a successful economy.

[xoggoth]

I guess which side one is on here boils down to belief in what is the primary purpose of employment:

1) To employ people
2) To provide the industry and services that the nation and society needs

I firmly believe that, if we want a successful economy, it should be the latter. Of course workers' rights matter but, if they become the main priority, we risk fossilising our economy, clinging on to out-dated jobs, like those of tube drivers, that no longer make any commercial sense. We need to go with technology and changing requirements. In the long run an excessive emphasis on workers' rights is reducing the jobs available

[NibblyPig]

I find it hard to have sympathy having busted my arse off my entire life, and fought tooth and nail to train my skills up and increase my salary and career prospects.

If your job sucks, get another job. If you can't because you don't have any skills, go and learn some, then get another job. I did, from my first junior dev job paying about 15k, and during every job thereafter.

At no point did I stop showing up and start running their businesses into the ground in order to force them to pay me more money, whilst blocking them from being able to do anything about it.

[xoggoth]

This one worth reading too, give all the details of what's LU has offered and the guarantees:

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/pr...reject-new-off

We could work 17 weekends and have one off, potentially.

Not according to above link.

•Assurances on work-life balance - with amended rosters and the new staff already hired for Night Tube, which will give drivers the same number of weekends off as they receive now.
•No-one will be asked to work more hours than they do today to run the Night Tube. After a short transitional period while the service is introduced, drivers will have the choice as to whether they work nights or not
•Everybody will remain entitled to two days off in seven

Some nice bonuses in there too.

[darmstadt]

According to Boris Johnson, and one would assume he would check his facts before making public statements, station staff do get 52 days paid holiday a year, are not being required to work extra hours and their pay is already generous.



Tube strike: staff get 52 days holiday a year, Boris Johnson says - Telegraph

Yep, you're correct there. I think the sticking point is that the shifts are a trial period for one year:

The trial period, after which tube staff will have the right to refuse night shifts, in fact lasts for a year. A year is a very long time to have to suddenly make new arrangements if, for example, a spouse is depending on childcare. There’s also no guarantee that staff would get their regular hours back if they refuse night shifts.

The unions say the offer fundamentally does not change their key concern, that no proper system has been agreed for night shifts, and staff will be rostered to work all night without consultation.

The offer actually looks good on paper but as one driver put it:

Drivers work unsociable hours. They can be working three out of four weekends and almost every bank holiday and have been doing so for many years. For managers to come along and say we are introducing a night tube and not consult the drivers and station staff and enforce a new working pattern on them without consulting them is unethical.

We could work 17 weekends and have one off, potentially. The unions in previous years have fought for our work conditions and have kept our jobs secure. I am on a fixed term contract with London Underground at a time where my job future with London Underground is in question yet they are hiring new staff on permanent contracts around me.

I feel alienated by a company that treats staff as if they are slaves. In any work place where terms and conditions are changed without consultation there will be uproar. Thankfully we have our unions to back us.

[xoggoth]

PS The main sticking points seems to be here:

Mr Brennan said: "The main concern is the complete lack of firm commitments on work life balance for train drivers. Our members want guarantees on the number of weekend rest days they will have under both the interim and long term arrangements for night Tube. Vague phrases like "will seek to mitigate" and "will explore" are simply unconvincing

LU said the unions were continuing to demand more money, the hiring of more staff - including for ticket offices that customers no longer use - and further guarantees on what they consider to be issues around work-life balance, including a 32 hour, four day week.
The changed offer included an extra £200 per night Tube shift for drivers while the new service is introduced and a £500 bonus for station staff by next February. After a short transition period while the service is introduced, drivers will have the choice whether to work nights, said LU, and everyone will be entitled to two days off in seven.

A spokesman for Mr Johnson said: "Despite the fair, sensible and generous offer on the table - which will see no one working more hours than they do today - the unions have chosen not to put it to their members and to reject it outright.

24-hour Tube strike to go ahead from Wednesday evening « Express & Star

[xoggoth]

I wonder if people actually realise that the majority of strikers were actually station staff who don't get 52 days paid holiday a year and earn a heck of a lot less than a driver yet are suddenly being asked to work even more anti-social hours than they already do and that the strike is not actually about pay but about working patterns? Thought not, but don't let facts get in the way And for the permies, remember if you want the same working conditions as a tube driver, maybe you should join a union

According to Boris Johnson, and one would assume he would check his facts before making public statements, station staff do get 52 days paid holiday a year, are not being required to work extra hours and their pay is already generous.

"It is a very good offer, No one has to work more hours than they do. Train operators already have 42 days of leave, 52 for station staff. These are very considerable sums of money. They already get a very good deal."

Tube strike: staff get 52 days holiday a year, Boris Johnson says - Telegraph

[SueEllen]

Bus drivers in London are employed by multiple different companies. Some are on tulip wages while others are on better wages.

Ideally they would change employers but it doesn't work like that as some companies only employ those who live within the local area to get away with their tulip wage levels. Oddly those companies have a lot of adverts up. (They also advertise in job centres.)

Oh and during the Olympics if it wasn't for buses I wouldn't have been able to get across London to the events I had tickets for.

[NibblyPig]

I wonder if people actually realise that the majority of strikers were actually station staff who don't get 52 days paid holiday a year and earn a heck of a lot less than a driver yet are suddenly being asked to work even more anti-social hours than they already do and that the strike is not actually about pay but about working patterns? Thought not, but don't let facts get in the way And for the permies, remember if you want the same working conditions as a tube driver, maybe you should join a union

Is it though? Cos they're saying we can't work nights it ruins our lives!!!11eleven but somehow.... give us an extra few hundred quid and it'll make it all better. "The unions say they want Tube workers to be fairly compensated for night working, which has been linked to poor health"

I remember when we had the olympics, the bus union demanded everyone get an extra 500 quid cos they will have a bit more workload. These transport unions are annoying as hell.

"It added bus workers were the only London transport workers not receiving an award for their extra effort during the Olympics."

London 2012: Bus drivers to strike over Olympics payments - BBC News

bloody didums